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-   -   DRM WINB 15670 Khz (http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2800)

MARCEL 17-05-2018 17:10

DRM WINB 15670 Khz
 
To moment 15H35 Z of 15670 Khz I receive WINB SNR 11 to 17 db shortly audio cut from fading :

https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018...5809399367.jpg

tpreitzel 17-05-2018 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARCEL
To moment 15H35 Z of 15670 Khz I receive WINB SNR 11 to 17 db shortly audio cut from fading :

https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018...5809399367.jpg


I certainly wouldn't use 64 QAM modulation even at a low bit-rate. ;) Kudos to WINB for experimenting, though.

MARCEL 18-05-2018 12:52

WINB is on Air this moment 11H33 UTC of 15670 Khz.

MARCEL 18-05-2018 17:03

At 15h30 UTC I have other station of 15670 with litle interfence with DRM I think is AWR.

This day signal from WINB no so good that yesterday no audio :

https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018...5814737271.jpg

Cumbredx 18-05-2018 20:28

18/5 Reception on WINB in Naples, Florida
 
Got the WINB ID screen on the Gospell for a few minutes, that's it.

PhilipOneL 21-05-2018 13:38

Monday 21 May 2018, 1215 UTC. I've been tuned to WINB's 15670 fq for the past hour but I'm seeing nothing. But the entire 19mb has been poor with a few small breaks from the East, rather than from the West, and nothing as high as 15670 kHz.

I am about 2000 km NE of Red Lion. Is anyone closer to to the txr receiving it this morning?

Downtown St. John's, Newfoundland. MR27024 + 8 metre wire.

-----------
EDIT a minute later: having said that, I tuned up and discovered a fairly clear signal from Nashville on 15825. So: the MUF is high enough. . . .

PhilipOneL 22-05-2018 14:45

No sign of it here in St John's again today, Tuesday 22 May 2018 (checking between 1200 and now, 1325 UTC). There are *some* USA 19mb signals coming in here (for example Nashville on 15825 kHz).

tpreitzel 22-05-2018 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilipOneL
No sign of it here in St John's again today, Tuesday 22 May 2018 (checking between 1200 and now, 1325 UTC). There are *some* USA 19mb signals coming in here (for example Nashville on 15825 kHz).


Philip,

Before I left home to access public WiFi, I left my SDR-4+ running DReaM and logging this broadcast. I didn't notice any DRM signal either. I suspect WINB hasn't been broadcasting so far this week. Hans can correct me if I'm wrong.

Cumbredx 23-05-2018 12:03

WINB
 
He's right, we have not been on this week yet. Let me do some asking and
see if I can find out when it will be on again.

Cumbredx 23-05-2018 22:13

Updates WINB
 
Hi All - After testing the ASI transmitter last week, WINB is making a few changes to it. So 15670 kHz won't be on for a few weeks, I'll let you guys know when we start back up again.

In the meantime, WINB might do some DRM tests on 9265 kHz but that will also be a process of test a bit, be off while changes are made, and come back on process.

73s,

Hans Johnson
Sales Manager, WINB

G4TMV 31-05-2018 16:01

Looks like they're testing again, I just got a brief ID here on Dream at 1440 UTC, not quite strong enough for any audio as yet though.

AF4MP 01-06-2018 17:14

WINB 15670 khz reception near Atlanta, Georgia, USA
 
2 Attachment(s)
There is a weak DRM signal that can be seen (attachment 1) on my Dream software waterfall display (receiver is the Kenwood R-1000).

A little stronger display from Miami via the KiwiSDR web receiver (attachment 2).

The DRM waveform, at around noon local time, can also be seen in Houston, Texas, and in Iceland via local KiwiSDR web receivers.

The signal is, not surprisingly, very weak everywhere. Unfortunately due to the current solar cycle the use of this frequency will not be particularly successful!

PhilipOneL 01-06-2018 18:05

I was lucky enough to sit down by the radio just a couple of minutes after 1600 UTC and check for WINB's DRM test on 15670 kHz.

I got a few minutes of its label before the signal disappeared. It was strong, at least for a little while, andI was surprised I could not get any audio decoded -- the MER remained high (11-15 dB) for stretches of 30 seconds or so. I wonder if they were actually b/cg any audio. . .

The fading was deep and the MER would keep shooting down to zero dB. By 1607, the signal had practically disappeared. Right now, just after 1645 UTC, there's nothing there and there hasn't been anything for twenty minutes or so.

By the way, I was very pleased to see that WINB's DRM mode reset my radio's time and date. Since the MorphyRichards has such a slow way to reset time & date, I have mostly given up on it. The majority of DRM txrs don't bother implementing that aspect of their signal (like, say, RRI) which is a bit annoying. Nigeria used to, though it was an unreliable time, and the BBC does, but I can only very irregularly pick them up. I hope WINB continues if only to reset my clock! :)

MorphyRichards 27024 set attached to an eight-metre wire strung out my window to the fence. In downtown St. John's, Newfoundland, about 2000 km to the NE of Red Lion, Pennsylvania where WINB is.

PhilipOneL 01-06-2018 18:18

It's just before 1700 UTC right now and I thought to tune the AM radio (Grundig Satellit 750) to 15670 kHz to see if there is anything there. There is an audio tone, somewhere in the 300-400 HZ area, maybe? Not the usual white-noise whoosh associated with DRM. Anyone else hearing that?

-------------
EDIT: A couple of minutes *after* 1700: the tone disappeared at 1700 UTC.

AF4MP 01-06-2018 19:05

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Philip,

According to VOACAP your location is one of a relatively few that should get a reasonable signal from this transmission (see the attachment) at 1600 UTC.

It would be nice to have a web receiver in Newfoundland!

Radio France International also has a broadcast at the same time, and on the same frequency, beaming 500 kW to Africa from Issoudun which could be the source of the tone.

PhilipOneL 02-06-2018 02:14

Good point about RFI producing the RFI.

Also about this being a good spot for a web SDR. Ahh, if I were a rich man. . .

Thanks for the map of signal strength. It seems an odd distribution with many of the best reception areas being totally unpopulated.

Philip

AF4MP 02-06-2018 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilipOneL
It seems an odd distribution with many of the best reception areas being totally unpopulated.


That was the reason for my comments. Their 9265 kHz frequency is definitely the better choice!

To WINB's defense they only have one rhombic antenna and a limited number of transmitters and frequencies. I certainly support their DRM experimentation and I wish them all the success!

Cumbredx 04-06-2018 18:41

VOACAP, WINB, and DRM
 
I don't believe that VOACAP can plug in various DRM parameters such as mode, bit rate, QAM, protection levels, etc.

If VOACAP can, please share with us how this map would look if WINB was at
16 QAM instead of 64. Or Mode A or C instead of B.

AF4MP 04-06-2018 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumbredx
I don't believe that VOACAP can plug in various DRM parameters such as mode, bit rate, QAM, protection levels, etc.


You are correct it does not have an option for DRM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumbredx
If VOACAP can, please share with us how this map would look if WINB was at 16 QAM instead of 64. Or Mode A or C instead of B.


VOACAP can, however, show you the received signal level in dBw (or equivalent S-meter reading).

Since it is DRM the RF signal level does not change with the DRM parameter (provided it is transmitted in a 10 kHz bandwidth). The S-meter reading will not change whether you go 16 or 64 QAM, or whatever Mode you choose.

So the VOACAP plot would remain the same.

Cumbredx 04-06-2018 21:53

DRM
 
The S meter reading stays the same no matter what changes.

But irrespective of this, wouldn't the readability change based on whether one
chooses 16 or 64 QAM?

Mode A is for local reception, B typical service, C long distance, D NIVS, so you are saying that a VOACAP map will look the same in dBw at a 10 kHz bandwidth?
If this is the case, then how could a broadcaster us VOACAP to determine which mode he should use if his map will always look the same?

Hans

AF4MP 05-06-2018 00:30

Hans,

Please let me refer you to the DRM Organization "DRM Introduction and Implementation Guide, Revision 3, October 2017"

Specifically to:

1. Page 26


ii. Modulation parameters

In addition to the basic transmission Modes, there is also a choice of modulation (QAM constellation) and coding (Viterbi) rates for the main service channel. Normally, provided the broadcaster has selected the transmission mode correctly, the service area achieved should be defined predominantly by the received signal-to-noise ratio.

This allows the use of simple analogue planning tools (see Section 10).

In all DRM30 Modes the option exists to choose either 64-QAM or 16-QAM for the Main Service Channel, and this choice will be largely influenced by the signal-to-noise + interference ratio (SNR) that can be achieved in the
target area. The more robust 16-QAM option is normally chosen where the SNR is expected to be too low to support 64-QAM.

2. Page 89

Table 10.5.2.2d shows the range for minimum usable field strength needed to achieve the BER target on HF channels using robustness mode B. This range arises from varying propagation channel conditions. Mode A is
not applicable to HF transmission because of the lack of robustness in the OFDM parameters (length of the guard interval and frequency spacing of the subcarriers).

Here is the table (with the average field strength calculated from the range shown in the original table)

MOD PROT dBuV dBW

16-QAM 0 20.8 -116
16-QAM 1 23.75 -113

64-QAM 0 26.2 -110.7
64-QAM 1 28.55 -108.4

I calculated the corresponding dBuV to dBW conversion.

3. Page 85

10.4 Planning tools

At the time of writing there are no planning tools available which have been specifically designed to calculate coverage and availability for DRM transmissions.

However, provided that the broadcaster uses a transmission mode appropriate to the channel being used, the more esoteric aspects of digital transmission and reception (delay spread, channel impulse response etc.) are automatically catered for within the various DRM-mode parameters.

This then leaves only the received field-strength (and predicted interference levels from other broadcasts) to be determined by the planning tool in precisely the same manner as when planning an analogue service. In other words, given the additional knowledge of the receiver performance and the relevant local noise-floor, the overall received c/n ratio can be calculated in the normal way.

Hence, current ‘analogue’ planning tools capable of predicting mean and standard deviation of field-strength can be used to plan DRM services, provided the appropriate target s/n figure for the relevant DRM mode is used.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My comments on the difference between 16-QAM and 64-QAM.

From the above table:

a 64-QAM signal with protection level 0 is better than one with level 1 by 2.3 dB which is less than half of an S-point.

a 16-QAM signal with protection level 0 is better than one with level 1 by 3 dB which is exactly half of an S-point.


a 16-QAM signal with protection level 1 is better than 64-QAM with level 0 by 2.3 dB which is less than half of an S-point (e.g. RRI 11650 kHz).


a 16-QAM signal with protection level 0 is better than 64-QAM with level 0 by 5.3 dB which is less than than one S-point.

zfyoung 05-06-2018 02:24

I'm afraid whether VOACAP can predict various DRM transmission coverage is moot here. Even the field strength at receiver site is NOT the determinate factor of a successful DRM reception.

From my observation through kiwiSDR, their signal seems suffer from poor linearity in PA link. For a properly calibrated DRM signal of the same signal strength, it should register much higher SNR on the receiver side. All I can say is that their engineers haven't done their homework adequately.

AF4MP 05-06-2018 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfyoung
I'm afraid whether VOACAP can predict various DRM transmission coverage is moot here. Even the field strength at receiver site is NOT the determinate factor of a successful DRM reception.


Totally agree! Although VOACAP can provide a reasonable indication as to whether a signal has a chance to be heard provided the transmitter is correctly adjusted and can handle the DRM load.

tpreitzel 05-06-2018 18:40

1 Attachment(s)
Jun 5th, 2018 partial log ...

Frequency: +
Codec: -
Modulation: -

Please switch to 16 QAM modulation with the xHE-AAC codec. Statistically, there aren't too many DRM receivers, DReaM or dedicated hardware, anyway so there's little loss in switching to the xHE-AAC codec as well. Yeah, I'd have to switch to my GR-216 receiver with its software bugs, but it'll do for awhile. ;)

Braccini 05-06-2018 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpreitzel
Jun 5th, 2018 partial log ...

Frequency: +
Codec: -
Modulation: -

Please switch to 16 QAM modulation with the xHE-AAC codec. Statistically, there aren't too many DRM receivers, DReaM or dedicated hardware, anyway so there's little loss in switching to the xHE-AAC codec as well. Yeah, I'd have to switch to my GR-216 receiver with its software bugs, but it'll do for awhile. ;)

In addition, despite not arriving in Brazil, sound very muffled, with a rate of 8.28 kbps, despite the use of 64-QAM mode. It is regrettable that the DRM transmitter parameters are not used correctly: https://alokeshgupta.blogspot.com/20...-drm-mode.html

Braccini 05-06-2018 19:23

In addition, despite not arriving in Brazil, sound very muffled, with a bitrate of 8.28 kbps on 64-QAM mode :confused: . It is regrettable that the DRM transmitter parameters are not used correctly: https://alokeshgupta.blogspot.com/20...-drm-mode.html

tpreitzel 06-06-2018 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braccini
In addition, despite not arriving in Brazil, sound very muffled, with a bitrate of 8.28 kbps on 64-QAM mode :confused: . It is regrettable that the DRM transmitter parameters are not used correctly: https://alokeshgupta.blogspot.com/20...-drm-mode.html


Unfortunately, people learn best when making errors... I sincerely wish DRM SW broadcasters would closely review the posted logs on these forums, both current and historical. Despite this hopefully constructive criticism, I wish WINB the best in their effort to bring DRM to shortwave.

Terje,

Is it a good idea to add 15670 kHz to your log plotter or not? WINB doesn't normally use this frequency.

Digger 06-06-2018 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpreitzel
Terje,
. . . add 15670 kHz to your log plotter . . .


Done!

(Finally I'm getting closer to a completed hobby room!!!)
The propagation is terrible - - - not much to hear at all . . .

Braccini 06-06-2018 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger
Done!

(Finally I'm getting closer to a completed hobby room!!!)
The propagation is terrible - - - not much to hear at all . . .

I think it's hard not to pick up some DRM station in Japan ... Even in Brazil it is getting right to RRI at 11650 kHz DRM at 21h UTC. Although the spread is also low here, RRI has been a spectacle. I suggested the frequency, maybe that's why it's cool and the modulation in 16-QAM was phenomenal 😊📻

Clint 73 from South of Brazil!

tpreitzel 07-06-2018 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger
Done!

(Finally I'm getting closer to a completed hobby room!!!)
The propagation is terrible - - - not much to hear at all . . .


I appreciate it. Yeah, propagation has been, well strange. On some early mornings, I can receive the BBC from Meyerton on 15400 kHz fairly well and on other days the frequency is just static.

We're looking forward to your logs as time permits so it's great that the setup of your radio gear is proceeding nicely.

Cumbredx 08-06-2018 15:41

6/8 WINB Reception Naples, FL
 
https://twitter.com/SWWINB/status/1005088642249969664

AF4MP 08-06-2018 17:46

WINB 15670 kHz reception near Atlanta, Georgia, USA
 
2 Attachment(s)
Very pleasantly surprised to receive and decode a little of WINB this morning!

Heard an announcement by the Unity Bible Church and a WINB station ID.

Interesting that they are running Mode B at 5kHz with 64-QAM. The received audio sounded quite good with an audio bandwidth that showed as 4 kHz.

I momentarily switched receivers and on my Kenwood R-1000 the S-meter was S9+10 dB! Max SNR 15.47 dB (see attachment 1).

Unusual short skip propagation on this frequency to Pennsylvania.

Station Screen ID shown in attachment 2.

AF4MP 08-06-2018 17:53

WINB System Evaluation Screen
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the Dream System Evaluation screen for the WINB transmission.

The transmitted spectral shape looks strange, maybe explaining the sporadic audio decoding, that given the strength of the signal should have been much better.

AF4MP 08-06-2018 18:52

WINB Transmitted Bandwidth
 
I'm slow today, but why does the evaluation screen show that the Mode/Bandwidth is B and 5 kHz, yet the spectral bandwidth is 10 kHz?

AF4MP 08-06-2018 21:13

WINB Bandwidth (Continued)
 
1 Attachment(s)
According to the DRM Consortiums "Tech Books":

The current channel widths for radio broadcasting below 30 MHz are 9 kHz and 10 kHz. The DRM system is designed to be used:

• within these nominal bandwidths, in order to satisfy the current planning situation;
within half these bandwidths (4,5 kHz or 5 kHz) in order to allow for simulcast with analogue AM signals;

In other words you can't have 5 kHz DRM transmission by itself without the special situation of the simulcast accompanying AM analog signal. Therefore someone probably pushed the wrong button on the DRM content server, and half the signal that has been transmitted is correct and the other half is noise (see attachment) causing all kinds of problems!

zfyoung 09-06-2018 02:05

Quote:

half the signal that has been transmitted is correct and the other half is noise (see attachment) causing all kinds of problems!
Maybe the other non-DRM part is some kind of digital mode(MFSK, PSK....) akin to the VOA Radiogram?

MARCEL 09-06-2018 08:35

Maybe the other non-DRM part is some kind of digital mode(MFSK, PSK....) akin to the VOA Radiogram?

Yes I decoded all Week Shortwave Radiogram, you can sea to this french Forum my login is PANDORE88 :

http://www.passion-swl.com/t6256-shortwave-radiogram

MARCEL 09-06-2018 08:40

I receive WINB QSL for this DRM test, is very nice :

https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018...3420474762.jpg

AF4MP 09-06-2018 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfyoung
Maybe the other non-DRM part is some kind of digital mode(MFSK, PSK....) akin to the VOA Radiogram?


Even if it were, simulcast is not recommended for Shortwave!

According to the EBU Technical Specification ETSI TS 102 509 V1.1.1 (2006-05)

Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM); Single Channel Simulcast (SCS)

"Due to the fact that multipath propagation via the ionosphere is a typical characteristic of radio channels in HF broadcasting, the use of SCS is recommended only for LF and MF bands with mainly ground wave propagation"


The other concern here would be the receiver IF filtering.

AF4MP 10-06-2018 00:28

WINB Datcasting - Latency Arbitrage?
 
I continue to be very slow on the uptake, and yet zfyoung always makes good sense.

I decided to peruse the FCC transmitter application files. What first caught my attention was the emission designator 10K00G9W - that meant some kind of data transmission - other than just DRM.

So I start going through the public FCC WINB files and notice that connected to their new Amplifier Systems, Inc. linear amplifier is a Datacasting Modulator! This modulator is fed by the DRM OFDM and a separate data signal. :eek:

Now isn't that special!

I guess that WINB wants to get onto the "Latency Arbitrage" phenomenon where money can be made by trying to beat the financial trading information time that goes over a normal overseas fiber optic cable. The rationale being that electromagnetic waves travel slower through glass than through the ionosphere.

If that is true, and I am only speculating, then it will be interesting to see if the data simulcast with DRM will be successful. Particularly since it is not recommended for the hf bands.


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