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radiomann
21-12-2005, 20:56
Sorry to say but DRM has become boring now, nothing on in the evening/night, daytime is nothing special, to many dropouts to try to enjoy anything, even Luxy sounds boring and dull, does DRM have a future? Not from what I've heard so far not even used it the past few days.

Paul

DRM-Fan
22-12-2005, 22:50
Hi Paul

It's a shame there's no info about DRM on radio and tv. I would guess near enough no one (aka Joe Public) knows about DRM for this reason.

I guess things will change with more stations and freqs etc when radios appear at last in a few months but even then maybe not. If broadcasters are just not interested in DRM then nothing will change. It was the same with AM stereo tests in the UK back in 1990. That's all they became as there was practically no interest in this either

dk8cb
22-12-2005, 23:41
Originally posted by DRM-Fan aka amstereofan

It's a shame there's no info about DRM on radio and tv.
... It was the same with AM stereo tests in the UK back in 1990. That's all they became as there was practically no interest in this either

What would the public do with such an information as long as there are no receivers in the shops?
I guess that all people that are somehow interested in shortwave will have heard about DRM in the meantime. Many of these however will not have had the chance to listen to a good quality DRM transmission. But where should they, if there are no receivers available except from the solutions available to a comparatively small number of people?

Better consider this situation as a challenge for yourself to spread information about DRM among the people you know. I have done so and I have also mailed people recordings of interesting programmes eg from BBCWS. The reaction was quite positive.

BTW: The AM stereo times are over ...

Roland

DRM-Fan
23-12-2005, 10:04
Originally posted by dk8cb


Better consider this situation as a challenge for yourself to spread information about DRM among the people you know. I have done so and I have also mailed people recordings of interesting programmes eg from BBCWS. The reaction was quite positive.

BTW: The AM stereo times are over ...

Roland

DRM is still a long way from being well known about. I've also emailed a few media people one with a tech phone in spot trying to get him to talk about it etc.

AM stereo is still quite alive in many countries actually incl USA, Australia and Japan. In fact one reason everything was quashed here was that Germany were apparently developing an RDS system for AM at the time

Ofcom are so ridicoulously slow at implementing any tests etc I can forsee even six months after radios have been out there still want be any real tests on MW etc. DAB rules here!

MikeB
23-12-2005, 14:04
Ofcom are a regulator and as such cannot implement tests only make licences available and they have. They have granted test and development licences to four UK transmitter companies.

They have always mentioned the possibilities for using DRM on AMin their reports and are now going to consult as to whether they should issue AM licences as DRM ones. They have now mentioned the DRM extension to 30MHz+ I can't see what more they can do.

DRM will happen in the UK if there is interest from the BBC, the major commercial radio companies or the smaller/community stations.

There is an article on DRM in today Times:

Debate over digital radio is sending mixed signals By Dan Sabbagh
As Britain embraces DAB, another standard is gaining appeal

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-1957315,00.html

DRM-Fan
23-12-2005, 14:54
Hmm very good report that! DRM radios in January or Feb, let's hope so then

Re ofcom there is no need for any consulation is there ? Do you think any commercial radio stations know about DRM ?

radiomann
23-12-2005, 16:10
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dk8cb
[B]

What would the public do with such an information as long as there are no receivers in the shops?
I guess that all people that are somehow interested in shortwave will have heard about DRM in the meantime. Many of these however will not have had the chance to listen to a good quality DRM transmission. But where should they, if there are no receivers available except from the solutions available to a comparatively small number of people?

Better consider this situation as a challenge for yourself to spread information about DRM among the people you know. I have done so and I have also mailed people recordings of interesting programmes eg from BBCWS. The reaction was quite positive.

BTW: The AM stereo times are over ...

Well I have mentioned DRM to all my friends and work colleuges and the first thing they ask is whats on it, when I tell them the same answer comes back, "is that it, sounds boring" I have a number of good mates in the radio industry and they they don't seem interested either, sure maybe 5 - 10 years time but I don't see it being a big thing in the UK. SW transmissions seem pretty pointless as in most cases to many dropouts, your average punter won't put up with that.

Paul

G8JQW
23-12-2005, 16:37
Originally posted by DRM-Fan
Hmm very good report that! DRM radios in January or Feb, let's hope so then
I doubt it - Roberts Radio haven't decided whether to manufacture using the RS5000 module, they have cited to me previously the fact that there are no UK DRM stations as ‘the biggest problem’.


73 … Roger

MikeB
23-12-2005, 16:51
Originally posted by DRM-Fan

Re ofcom there is no need for any consulation is there ? Do you think any commercial radio stations know about DRM ?

I don't see your point. If there is no need for consultation there will, in consequence be no DRM in the UK. So you would ask Ofcom to withdraw the question they are putting in their major review:

Should these (local analogue) licences be advertised as analogue licences at all or should they be awarded to use some new technology such as DRM?

The commercial radio stations in the UK are of course aware of DRM as it has been mentioned in Ofcoms Radio Reviews though I have not had a chance to read their responses, they have participated in the shortwave tests from Austria and they are participating in the 26 Mhz tests. In particular Classic FM, Talksport and Virgin the three national commercial licencees.

DRM-Fan
23-12-2005, 16:52
Originally posted by G8JQW

I doubt it - Robert Radio haven't decided whether to manufacture using the RS500 module, they have cited to me previously the fact that there are no UK DRM stations as ‘the biggest problem’.


73 … Roger

Oh great, An over optimistic reporter then. Someone has to make a move broadcasters or manufacturers, with each waiting for the other nothing will happen, what a mess

MikeB
23-12-2005, 16:56
Originally posted by G8JQW

I doubt it - Roberts Radio haven't decided whether to manufacture using the RS5000 module, they have cited to me previously the fact that there are no UK DRM stations as ‘the biggest problem’.


73 … Roger

Email Radioscape and they will tell you that the sets will be available in volume in Q1 2006 and limited quantities before that, presumably tests sets for a closed group of professionals.

Their first market is Germany and the Benelux where the sets are sold as Sangean, they rebadge them as Roberts in the UK. There are more DRM transmissions in that market, BBCWS, Luxembourg, Deutschlandfunk among others. I wonder whether the Roberts spokesperson you talked to was confusing manufacturing with UK marketing?

G8JQW
23-12-2005, 17:09
Originally posted by MikeB


I wonder whether the Roberts spokesperson you talked to was confusing manufacturing with UK marketing?
yes that's possible, but Sangean denied that the unit that Roberts Radio was evaluating was manufactured by them :confused:

73 ... Roger

Connor Walsh
23-12-2005, 17:29
I asked a friend visiting Taiwan earlier this week to phone Sangean's head office – and they said to wait "another year or two" before they would be making DRM sets! I hope they just meant making them available in Taiwan though, otherwise there is a bit too much conflicting information out there.

The current selection of programming shouldn't be taken as a suggestion of DRM not having a future – let's be honest, apart from the BBC, there probably isn't an International Broadcaster in Europe that could put up a 24 hour service in one language right now.

I think one of the things to help get DRM off hte ground will be expats and emigrants being able to tune into radio from their homelands, with relative ease and less the daunting task of understanding how to get a computer working at that.

I also think commercial radio groups will jump onto re-transmission services (from other countries) once combi DAB/DRM receivers are out there: I can think of NewsTalk in Ireland, Virgin and Talksport in the UK, RTL in France and Germany, and probably plenty more, who would love to have such straight-forward national coverage, and often without any licence complications.

So we really are waiting for the radios…!

MikeB
23-12-2005, 18:02
Originally posted by G8JQW

yes that's possible, but Sangean denied that the unit that Roberts Radio was evaluating was manufactured by them :confused:

73 ... Roger

Yes confused too as one of the IFA radios looked like a current Roberts/Sangean DAB set.

We will just have to wait and see, I will email Radioscape again if nothing appears.

DRM-Fan
23-12-2005, 23:57
Originally posted by MikeB


Yes confused too as one of the IFA radios looked like a current Roberts/Sangean DAB set.

We will just have to wait and see, I will email Radioscape again if nothing appears.

You are talking about the RD20 (image attached) ? This has to be the nicest looking. Fallen a lot in price in the last few months

dk8cb
24-12-2005, 01:15
Originally posted by G8JQW
yes that's possible, but Sangean denied that the unit that Roberts Radio was evaluating was manufactured by them :confused:


At IFA in Berlin, Sangean were showing off the same DRM prototype (http://www.stoepplernet.de/drm/ifa05/Sangean_front.jpg) receiver at their exhibition booth as could be seen at the DRM booth.

Roland

simone
24-12-2005, 17:59
... and here is a picture taken at IFA Berlin showing the same type of receiver but labelled as Roberts (http://www.stoepplernet.de/drm/roberts_sangean.jpg)
Simone

MikeB
26-12-2005, 10:48
The model looks like, from the outside, the Sangean DPR1/Roberts Gemini 1 DAB set.

The Sangean Europe site, which I visited about a month ago, is not active though the link from the Sangean Taiwan site is still there.

tacitus-ms
02-01-2006, 00:38
Now i have already been observing DRM for more than 1 1/2 years, but there is no progress any more. E.g. RTL on 1440 kHz seems to be a demonstration that on this frequency DRM does not work in mode B. In the evening when they use AM you can hear the station very clear and without any problems. But when they switch to DRM the very long IR causes a lot of dropouts. Of course, mode C or D could improve the situation, but only with an absolutely rediculous sound quality. Really unacceptable in the year 2006. DRM reduces the coverage area enormously. It seems, DRM was developed on the "green table".
Another good example: The station Deutschland Radio Kultur on LW 177 kHz. When they used the DRM mode the only way to receive was a magnetic loop. You had to null out the French interferer very precisely. Now they switched back to AM, and of course, you can hear a litte bit in the background if no music is played or nobody is talking, but it is amazing, how good the signal must be that a DRM receiver is able to decode the signal without dropouts. (Dream was a little bit better than DRM software when the interferer filter was activated)

I think DRM is just one error of a lot in the history of the technical development. Perhaps the developers should start from zero again to digitize the AM radio. Errare humanum est.

radiomann
02-01-2006, 08:19
Originally posted by tacitus-ms
Now i have already been observing DRM for more than 1 1/2 years, but there is no progress any more. E.g. RTL on 1440 kHz seems to be a demonstration that on this frequency DRM does not work in mode B. In the evening when they use AM you can hear the station very clear and without any problems. But when they switch to DRM the very long IR causes a lot of dropouts. Of course, mode C or D could improve the situation, but only with an absolutely rediculous sound quality. Really unacceptable in the year 2006. DRM reduces the coverage area enormously. It seems, DRM was developed on the "green table".
Another good example: The station Deutschland Radio Kultur on LW 177 kHz. When they used the DRM mode the only way to receive was a magnetic loop. You had to null out the French interferer very precisely. Now they switched back to AM, and of course, you can hear a litte bit in the background if no music is played or nobody is talking, but it is amazing, how good the signal must be that a DRM receiver is able to decode the signal without dropouts. (Dream was a little bit better than DRM software when the interferer filter was activated)

I think DRM is just one error of a lot in the history of the technical development. Perhaps the developers should start from zero again to digitize the AM radio. Errare humanum est.

Very well put, I think part of the problem is we all would like better quality on the AM Bands but apart from maybe local services DRM has too many faults, in my case to many dropouts, as I've said before jo public will not put up with it, I to have had DRM for 2 years or so and I don't see it going forward at all, also agree on the 1440 thing I could/can when in analogue get a good reception when it switches to DRM 95% of the time not worth listening to, well we will wait to see if improvements can be made which I'm not holding my breath on, or yes scap it and start again, oh and for RTL please close that hidious station that blures that once great Radio Luxembourg what a shambles that is, sorry.

DRM-Fan
02-01-2006, 10:09
I think DRM reception would work fine for local am stations and high powered national ones, I would love talksport and or Virgin in the UK to try DRM mode on AM at the same power levels to see what happens..

It's all looking very negative at the moment, hope DRM does'nt stay radio for anoraks for too mch longer but with the talk of DRM + perhaps everything is now going to be halted for a few years while we wait for a new spec and modules to be released etc ?

It seems ofcom are yet again holding things up with releasing freqs for testing in the UK. There's too many AM relays for BBC stations IMO which could be used for example. I would think barely anyone listens on AM now...

radiomann
02-01-2006, 14:15
DRM as it stands now will probably work for stations on SW such as DW, BBC World Service and others as they give a clearer sound and are on several frequencies for a few hours each day but, for commercial broadcasters SW is no go as they need to be on 24/7 without the dropouts and I don't see that happening.

DRM+ sounds more interesting but again only for local stations and high powered nation stations as DRM Fan mentioned but no chance of that at present in the UK with lack of frequencies though this could be rectified but Ofcom don't seem to want to budge as usual, and this again as DRM Fan states could take years:mad:

df9rb
02-01-2006, 19:00
A combination of 2 (1) action(s) could help to bring DRM to a success:

1) the broadcasters should adapt their bitrates better to conditions and circumstances on the AM-bands. Why do they run P-Stereo with the result of lower reliability and terrible artefacts? A little lower quality (if P-Stereo is an enhancement at all) is much better than drop outs and

2) a rework of the DRM-specification considering interference

or

extend the DRM-specification to allow a dual data stream. One with low audio quality but very robust - the second one transporting additional data necessary for high audio quality. The listener (or the receiver software) could decide what to prefere - quality and drop outs or stable with lower quality. If this would be implemented points 1) and 2) become outdated.

Bernd, DF9RB

radiomann
02-01-2006, 19:22
Originally posted by df9rb
A combination of 2 (1) action(s) could help to bring DRM to a success:

1) the broadcasters should adapt their bitrates better to conditions and circumstances on the AM-bands. Why do they run P-Stereo with the result of lower reliability and terrible artefacts? A little lower quality (if P-Stereo is an enhancement at all) is much better than drop outs and

2) a rework of the DRM-specification considering interference

or

extend the DRM-specification to allow a dual data stream. One with low audio quality but very robust - the second one transporting additional data necessary for high audio quality. The listener (or the receiver software) could decide what to prefere - quality and drop outs or stable with lower quality. If this would be implemented points 1) and 2) become outdated.

Bernd, DF9RB

Agree with you Bernd, some people are expecting to much quality in the audio the higher the biterate the more chance of dropouts, if it means lower biterates and less dropouts that is what I would go for, it would still sound better in most cases than crackly old AM.
It is the chicken & egg syndrome also, no cheap but quality DRM radio's yet and no real decent radio stations yet, and most people in the UK are not that interested in BBC, DW, Radio Sweden etc, they have there place but the majority of the UK population are not interested.
The UK will end up with virtually what we have on DAB, Virgin, Talksport, Capital Gold etc, good for areas where FM/DAB is bad but to be fair these are quite isolated spots compared to the whole of the UK and I would expect these services to go onto DRM + anyway.

DRM-Fan
02-01-2006, 19:29
Originally posted by df9rb
A combination of 2 (1) action(s) could help to bring DRM to a success:

1) the broadcasters should adapt their bitrates better to conditions and circumstances on the AM-bands. Why do they run P-Stereo with the result of lower reliability and terrible artefacts? A little lower quality (if P-Stereo is an enhancement at all) is much better than drop outs

Not too lower quality though ie bitrate on 3995 sounds awful worse than analogue SW why bother IMO. The main point of DRM is to provide better quality audio I thought and certainly stereo. Maybe the technology will never be perfect and if it is'nt broadcasters won't be interested. Another few years to wait I guess for DRM+ receivers that's IF even they ever materilize! They'll be probably yet another digital format by then :-(

It took about 8 years for DAB to get fairly established and that'a only in the UK and it's audio quality is constantly critisised on the radio forums etc

Even if we get the radios this year what is there too listen to anyway ? Full marks to radio Luxemburg but surely by now we should have say around half a dozen English stations to listen to also.

Manufaturing of DRM radios has made progress but not DRM radio STATIONS !

tacitus-ms
02-01-2006, 19:37
Originally posted by df9rb
....
extend the DRM-specification to allow a dual data stream. One with low audio quality but very robust - the second one transporting additional data necessary for high audio quality. The listener (or the receiver software) could decide what to prefere - quality and drop outs or stable with lower quality. If this would be implemented points 1) and 2) become outdated.

Bernd, DF9RB

Yes indeed! When I got my first contact with DRM, I was really surprised and astonished, that DRM DID NOT work that way. If I had been the project leader of it, dual stream or a equivalent solution would have been the first action point! UEP is not able to substitute this. I think, only a redisign of the specification and intensive FIELD TESTS can solve the problem.

regards tacitus-ms

radiomann
02-01-2006, 19:48
Originally posted by DRM-Fan


Not too lower quality though ie bitrate on 3995 sounds awful worse than analogue SW why bother IMO. The main point of DRM is to provide better quality audio I thought and certainly stereo. Maybe the technology will never be perfect and if it is'nt broadcasters won't be interested. Another few years to wait I guess for DRM+ receivers that's IF even they ever materilize! They'll be probably yet another digital format by then :-(

It took about 8 years for DAB to get fairly established and that'a only in the UK and it's audio quality is constantly critisised on the radio forums etc

Even if we get the radios this year what is there too listen to anyway ? Full marks to radio Luxemburg but surely by now we should have say around half a dozen English stations to listen to also.

Manufaturing of DRM radios has made progress but not DRM radio STATIONS !

But that's part of the problem if people want stero AM broadcasts which most of us want they have to up the biterate but then you suffer dropouts which people will not put up with.

In 8 years DAB has only sold just over 1 million sets there are 60 million people in the UK that is still very tiny.

Yes full marks for RTL getting Luxembourg back on the air but have you noticed in the radio forums people say it's poor and that was within the first few months and it's hardly mentioned now, most people do not like it, they need to go back to the drawing board like DRM need to.

dk8cb
02-01-2006, 21:31
Originally posted by DRM-Fan
The main point of DRM is to provide better quality audio I thought and certainly stereo.

I agree on the better quality aspect but I totally disagree on stereo. This may be (and we know it is) your personal preference (or should I say 'fetish' :D) but I don't think that the general public would put such an emphasis on it.

Roland

DRM-Fan
02-01-2006, 22:11
Originally posted by dk8cb


I agree on the better quality aspect but I totally disagree on stereo. This may be (and we know it is) your personal preference (or should I say 'fetish' :D)


Fetish Roland ? steady on there!! I appreciate the best sound quality possible that's all and that has not been acheived anywhere in Europe on MW so yes I will admit DRM would give it a new lease of life but probably now not to be the case for sometime anyway

but I don't think that the general public would put such an emphasis on it.

I'm not so sure I think a fair number would love as much stereo content as possible. Imagine listening to an ipod with mono headphones for example. Hearing DW on SW in stereo via the hi-fi is a novalty but I want this to become the norm not sure if it will now

Connor Walsh
03-01-2006, 08:15
Stereo is simply fabulous for radio, but all speech content has to be compatible with mono reception – so since we can't make full use of it, speech-based radio has largely stereo to the music channels: I don't think music is what will sell DRM, at least mainstream music. A lot of the DAB radios available are mono.

Mobile phones, Wi-Fi and even satellite are almost certain to cover the large market for music. On DRM, even before DRM+, music can be well catered for by local broadcasters on 26 MHz and the like.

It costs a lot of money to launch a radio service! Especially one where there won't be any listeners for a few months –_not too appealing to advertisers that! But in a Europe where wireless internet is available to a lot of people in urban areas, then DRM should provide other services. It can reduce the electricity and distribution costs for state broadcasters, but that's for the future (post analogue switch-off).

In the meantime, over-the-air radio needs news to keep its place among other technologies (as well as other general services, of course). But often governments need to have their arms twisted: why should they pay for news services?

I would like to think that as soon I had heard about that terrible ice rink collapse in Germany, I would have tuned to Deutsche Welle straight away to get all the latest news. But they aren't in a position to provide that sort of service.

I'm not criticising DW or any of the other international broadcasters : their budgets are stretched enough as it is. But perhaps the government-funded stations around Europe should look at how a commercial organisation, WRN, has made money out of the International Broadcasting business.

I also think DRM should be very attractive to broadcasters with local licences but who would like to go regional, thanks to overseas relays.

Obviously Radio Luxembourg is just ticking over until they really can get on air with a full commercial service.

I wonder is the consortium pushing DRM to non-members enough? It's a shame there aren't more progress reports on the official website.

Ager
03-01-2006, 10:59
According to Media Network Weblog China Radio International's Director-General Wang Gengnian says:

"Profound changes have taken place at CRI.
We have increased broadcasting times, readjusted the structure of the programs, enhanced
the efficiency of updates, and increased the amount and the depth of news analysis... Now broadcast in
29 different languages and four Chinese dialects, CRI's
total program length overseas has reached 387 hours."

And:

"We have further improved online broadcasting, providing text and
audio services in about 40 languages...In addition, foreigners living in China are also targeted with a
brand new information platform, a round-the-clock bilingual FM program. CRI is currently growing from the
previous single wireless broadcast to a complex media group combining broadcasting, television, internet
and print."

However CRI has not included DRM so far, and how to include when there are no receivers?

Anyway I could imagine that there is keen thinking going on not only in China on how to combine things, among them
the fantastic features of DRM (drm + internet, drm + wi-fi, drm + whatever)?

I agree with Connor that it is mostly information that is needed by remote listeners, i.e speech, maybe graphics,
and a few lines. Of course, stereo or high bitrate music is nice, and wonderful, but you can live without it now
and then, can you?

tacitus-ms
03-01-2006, 10:59
Originally posted by Connor Walsh
.... I wonder is the consortium pushing DRM to non-members enough? It's a shame there aren't more progress reports on the official website.

The best example is the website of the consortium in German :

DRM LW Sendungen
T-Systems hat zur IFA 2003 erstmalig DRM LW mit seinen Partnern DeutschlandRadio Deutschland Funk von dem T-Systems Standort Zehlendorf / Oranienburg auf LW 177 kHz erfolgreich abgestrahlt und führt weitere Tests durch um die LW DRM Sendungen zu optimieren.
Weitere Infos in Kürze.

This is still the same text - SINCE APRIL OF 2004! They HAVE NEVER MENTIONED that Deutschland Radio Kultur has been using this freuency for DRM since September 2005 (but since 01 of Dec. 2005 only at night). Very often a website of a scoolboy of the 8th class is updated more professionally than this one.

There are only two possibilities:
1.) The members of the DRM consortium and all employees who are involved do not believe any more that DRM has a future.
2.) The employees involved in the DRM theme perform as bad as that we´re observing. They should be released immediately. (T-Systems is involved, in fact, not just a cachet!) Here in Germany a lot of very good, highly qualified labor does not have a job and is waiting for a chance.

regards tacitus-ms

Connor Walsh
03-01-2006, 12:23
Originally posted by Ager

However CRI has not included DRM so far, and how to include when there are no receivers?

Anyway I could imagine that there is keen thinking going on not only in China on how to combine things, among them
the fantastic features of DRM (drm + internet, drm + wi-fi, drm + whatever)?


I used to work in CRI, and I have to say, don't expect them to move too quickly on anything! They did some DRM tests about a year and a half ago, but there was no mention of it made in the station at all, so I don't know how much of an impact it made.

But a primary concern for media policy in China is to control, to prevent access to foreign news; DRM can help in this of course, so be careful what you wish for! No doubt they are considering how appropriate DRM is for jamming and for being jammed. And we still need them to make the radios!

(I understand that they could be made for export-only like Sangean and Tivoli sets are already though)

And I agree with Tacitus-ms too: imagine if there had been a government grant to develop DRM radios and put them into Daimler-Chryslers, BMW and VW-Audis! The accelerated (pardon the pun) digital take-up and analogue switch-off could perhaps have saved back some of the investment. It's the sort of commercial thinking that has helped push XM and Sirius in the States.

A few months ago I asked a marketing (I think it was marketing) bigwig at the BBC World Service about DRM. She was keen on the technology, but at the same time had to throw up her hands and say "the BBC can't make people manufacture radios".

To be fair to the consortium, they saw the need for governmental and commercial groups to work together. On the outside, we don't know what they have tried or what sort of setbacks they have met.

Having tried to help out in a community radio start-up, I know how time consuming it can be, to mix something like this with a regular job. Maybe DRM needs some equity investors involved ;-)

ps I forgot Opels, sorry anyone in Bochum ;-)

Ager
03-01-2006, 12:51
Connor, I remember you working for CRI. DRM has its military roots, and it could be be dangerous for all kind of closed political systems, in the East, as you stated, but there seems to
be a rising tendency for the same in the West.

Anyway the CRI tests in 2004 to Europe did not fail, as most of us may remember. If the neighbouring Kim would like to play us his heroic Kim marches on drm one day, why would we not lend him our ears for a minute or two, in the spirit of Marx brothers, if nothing else.

Anyway, you made an interesting point, Connor - politics and drm. It is not just technology. Politics presumably has been no small obstacle for the consortium.

radiomann
03-01-2006, 18:32
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Connor Walsh


Obviously Radio Luxembourg is just ticking over until they really can get on air with a full commercial service.

Well thats fair point Conner but it's hardly going to sell DRM is it? And if you were an advertising agency would you advertise on it? Joe Bloggs will not entertain it, yes it's testing, what for 8hours a day on TWO poor frequencies on shortwave which DRM mode or not is prone to fade/dropouts hardly cutting edge radio even for a test. DRM is not going to work for long distant broadcaster like RTL for many years, sorry, hats off to them for trying but look at the DRM results for most stations it's always hit & miss, you can't run a commercial radio station these days like that.

Paul

Connor Walsh
04-01-2006, 08:58
Originally posted by radiomann
[QUOTE]
Well thats fair point Conner but it's hardly going to sell DRM is it? And if you were an advertising agency would you advertise on it? Joe Bloggs will not entertain it, yes it's testing, what for 8hours a day on TWO poor frequencies on shortwave which DRM mode or not is prone to fade/dropouts hardly cutting edge radio even for a test. DRM is not going to work for long distant broadcaster like RTL for many years, sorry, hats off to them for trying but look at the DRM results for most stations it's always hit & miss, you can't run a commercial radio station these days like that.

Paul

Yes, a good point well made. With broadcasters and enthusiasts using external aerials, there is unlikely to be an accurate idea of reception on domestic sets with the telescopic rod down flat! But RTL are as good a commercial operator as you are going to get, and I expect they will get around the technical obstacles and get a full service widely available. But I would be well annoyed with the manufacturers I had been supporting in getting the radios out before Christmas. All those new DAB radios out there, but none will pick up DRM "by stealth".

Gosh Ager scary to think you remember my terrible attempts at CRI! And I agree totally that our own governments here would be happy to keep media "line-of-sight" only. But at the same time, if DRM continues the current shortwave trend of most loud stations being what you could broadly call "propaganda", then very few people are going to buy a set especially for DRM.

If someone could grab a few MEPs obsessed with "TV without Borders" and show them DRM maybe we would get somewhere a bit faster Well, maybe…!

MikeB
04-01-2006, 16:58
Originally posted by radiomann

DRM+ sounds more interesting but again only for local stations and high powered nation stations as DRM Fan mentioned but no chance of that at present in the UK with lack of frequencies though this could be rectified but Ofcom don't seem to want to budge as usual, and this again as DRM Fan states could take years:mad:

There are no UK AM frequencies available for high power stations apart from the long wave one originally allocated for Scotland. To test there you would need someone to
make an investment decision and find a suitable site, it's also shared with Poland which is a problem and one of the main reasons it has remained unused.

The BBC local AM frequencies are used because of lack of FM coverage for their local radio stations and can only be released with their agreement.

Ofcom is a regulator, any push for DRM in the UK has to come from the BBC and/or the commercial radio industry and they have invested in DAB.

Ofcom have asked whether the next AM licences should be allocated to DRM and have granted all the test licences requested. They can't remove an AM licence from an operator and instruct it to transmit in DRM. Whilst there are no receivers it is commercial suicide anyway, they are not making money out of DAB.

Unlike the UK there are plenty of unused AM frequencies on the Continent, look at Holland for example. Those are the countries the DRM consortium should be looking to expand into. Radio Luxembourg has noticed all this unused AM space and put in requests to put their own transmitters on them and use DRM. This might spur the countries who are not using them to put something on.

DRM-Fan
04-01-2006, 20:01
Originally posted by MikeB


There are no UK AM frequencies available for high power stations apart from the long wave one originally allocated for Scotland. To test there you would need someone to
make an investment decision and find a suitable site, it's also shared with Poland which is a problem and one of the main reasons it has remained unused.

The BBC local AM frequencies are used because of lack of FM coverage for their local radio stations and can only be released with their agreement.



But surely now as I said FM reception must be just about perfect anywhere for the local BBC stations ? I'm sure barely anyone is still listening on AM. There are net streams now for all BBC local sts plus DAB. Now is the time to look closely at releasing AM given all the other outlets don't you agree ? Who do you know who listens to their local BBC st on AM ? If they do I'm sure it is by habit not because they have to..

G8JQW
06-01-2006, 17:19
Originally posted by G8JQW

yes that's possible, but Sangean denied that the unit that Roberts Radio was evaluating was manufactured by them :confused:

73 ... Roger
I’ve found out that the RD2 is indeed manufactured by Sangean but the RD20 is manufactured by Otaki. Morphy Richards designed DRM radio is manufactured by Korean company Cenix. All of these are using the RadioScape module. It seems there is no problem getting the units manufactured.

This information contained in a TI PowerPoint document for IFA 2005 www.deutsches-drm-forum.de/TI-DRM-presentation_hu.pdf

73s, Roger

dk8cb
06-01-2006, 18:32
Originally posted by G8JQW
I’ve found out that the RD2 is indeed manufactured by Sangean but the RD20 is manufactured by Otaki. Morphy Richards designed DRM radio is manufactured by Korean company Cenix. All of these are using the RadioScape module.

At IFA, the RD2 seemed to be the receiver on which the work was concentrated, it also seemed to be the most widely advanced prototype, perhaps apart from the Visteon car radio that was also shown. The RD20 was there as well but this seemed to be a very early version in which only the DAB module had been replaced by the RS500. Menu items and function push buttons did not match completely.

Demonstrations at the DRM consortium's booth were mainly given using the RD2 which was shown with both Sangean and Roberts labels. Apart from the fact that - as I was told - the receiver's (or the module's) firmware had had only been updated the night before IFA by Radioscape (not by Sangean or Roberts), the receivers seemed to be fully functional and push buttons also matched the menus displayed.

BTW: It is interesting to see, that there are two second source manufacturers for Radioscape modules in Asia, see this article (http://www.eetuk.com/bus/news/st/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=19202868).

Roland

MikeB
08-01-2006, 12:26
DRM will be exhibiting at Le Radio in Paris February 12th-15th
http://www.le-radio.com/

If you click on press and download the press pack, which has information in both French and English, you will see that there will be a showroom to "enable visitors to discover this first multistandard "Digital Radio" receiver."

The programme on the 14th is devoted to radio broadcast convergence including digital radio.

MikeB
17-01-2006, 12:50
Future of Radio - it ain't DRM for sure
Monday January 9th 2006
Jonathan Marks, former head of Radio Netherlands English service:
http://criticaldistance.blogspot.com/

DRM-Fan
17-01-2006, 13:31
Originally posted by MikeB
Future of Radio - it ain't DRM for sure
Monday January 9th 2006
Jonathan Marks, former head of Radio Netherlands English service:
http://criticaldistance.blogspot.com/

Yes he's right of course there's nothing to listen to. What a shame Media Network is'nt still runing, that would help shake things up a bit

radiomann
17-01-2006, 20:07
Originally posted by DRM-Fan


Yes he's right of course there's nothing to listen to. What a shame Media Network is'nt still runing, that would help shake things up a bit

This is what I have been saying for the past few months, DRM will not work for a long time, i very rarley use mine nowadays, nothing to listen too and to many dropouts IF you find something to listen too?

Paul

dk8cb
17-01-2006, 22:33
Originally posted by radiomann
This is what I have been saying for the past few months, DRM will not work for a long time, I very rarley use mine nowadays, nothing to listen to and too many dropouts IF you find something to listen to?


No matter what negative assertions radiomann or DRM-Fan are regularly venting on this thread, I myself do listen to DRM daily and I can assure anybody that I am enjoying it quite a lot.
Perhaps it's just the wrong prorammes you can receive at your place.

Roland

DRM-Fan
17-01-2006, 23:16
Originally posted by dk8cb


No matter what negative assertions radiomann or DRM-Fan are regularly venting on this thread, I myself do listen to DRM daily and I can assure anybody that I am enjoying it quite a lot.
Perhaps it's just the wrong prorammes you can receive at your place.

Roland

I'm not being negative Roland about the mode, I think it's fastastic though the hi-fi as I've said before, but about the lack of interest broadcasters (and ofcom) seem to be showing about it certainly in the UK. The spec has been finalised radios are out soon - if you can believe radioscape / roberts next month even - but where are the exciting new MW and SW tests ?!!

To say there are no MW freqs available I just don't buy. If ofcom and broadcasters in the UK were THAT keen I'm sure a handful of tests would be 'out there' right now. To use 26 mhz IMO is just playing about with tests...

Anyway I know it's all getting a bit boring but I have a great interest in all modes of radio and DRM looked to be very promising, but I guess with it being so easy now to click here and there to get any radio stations you desire in great quality via the net DRM will go nowhere not for now anyway. It took 10 years for DAB to just about get noticed in the UK and even now it's critisised to death. I think it's great not perfect but with 30 or so stations receivable just about anywhere in the UK it's proven to be fairly popular at last. Comapre this stuation with DRM, how many stations for the UK ? Radio Luxenburg and BBC WS, I make that 2 - wow!

So see what happens this year...not much I fear

radiomann
18-01-2006, 16:03
Originally posted by dk8cb


No matter what negative assertions radiomann or DRM-Fan are regularly venting on this thread, I myself do listen to DRM daily and I can assure anybody that I am enjoying it quite a lot.
Perhaps it's just the wrong prorammes you can receive at your place.

Roland


It may sound negative Roland but it's just honesty, DRM in principle is an excellant idea and sounds very good, the problem I have is the programming and stability on Short Wave, I only like music stations to be honest and apart from RTL there isn't anything else for me, though I have had a lot of fun with DRM, I just say what I think, I could lie and say it works 100% 24/7? Here in the UK we are stuck with DAB, but it works for me as I listen to Capital Gold 1548AM so I get it 24/7 in Stereo, I, like DRM Fan would love to have some MW & LW broadcasts but this silly country (UK) wants to sit on the fence again, so it's not being negative against what DRM could acheive it's all the other factors, and I know a lot of people in the radio industry (sorry no names) and they've said for the forseeable future they will just sit and wait to see what happens if anything with DRM, so we just go round in circles.

After saying all that, Yes bring DRM on.

Paul

MikeB
18-01-2006, 19:57
Originally posted by DRM-Fan
I'm not being negative Roland about the mode, I think it's fastastic though the hi-fi as I've said before, but about the lack of interest broadcasters (and ofcom) seem to be showing about it certainly in the UK.

On what basis are you making that assertion given that Ofcom is to ask whether AM licences should be re-advertised as DRM ones and the participation in shortwave DRM tests on 9, 11 and 26 Mhz by UK commercial radio companies and the three major Uk transmitter companies.

Originally posted by DRM-Fan
The spec has been finalised radios are out soon - if you can believe radioscape / roberts next month even - but where are the exciting new MW and SW tests ?!!

To say there are no MW freqs available I just don't buy. If ofcom and broadcasters in the UK were THAT keen I'm sure a handful of tests would be 'out there' right now. To use 26 mhz IMO is just playing about with tests...


The lack of medium wave UK frequencies not already licenced has been mentioned and analysed on other forums as well as by Ofcom itself.
Which frequency or frequencies could be used for UK DRM tests apart from 225?

Originally posted by DRM-Fan Comapre this stuation with DRM, how many stations for the UK ? Radio Luxenburg and BBC WS, I make that 2 - wow!
I

The BBC WS DRM service is not targeting the UK as far as I am aware and Radio Luxembourg's tests have not been wholly successful.
Are you now talking about shortwave DRM? Given that there were tests towards the UK from Moosbrun by UK commercial companies and religious broadcasters those could resume. WRN is also interested in DRM so they might be interested in putting out the WRN English service on shortwave via DRM. We need to get receivers on the market in quantity to make that feasible. Given the amount of stations on FM, DAB and digital satellite in the UK there's only a limited amount of potential for DRM here at the moment, more if the AM licencees agree to readvertise the frequencies for DRM use and Ofcom are going to pose the question.

DRM seems to making more progress in the UK than in many other countries in Europe it seems to me.

MikeB
18-01-2006, 20:08
Originally posted by radiomann

Here in the UK we are stuck with DAB, but it works for me as I listen to Capital Gold 1548AM so I get it 24/7 in Stereo, I, like DRM Fan would love to have some MW & LW broadcasts but this silly country (UK) wants to sit on the fence again, so it's not being negative against what DRM could acheive it's all the other factors, and I know a lot of people in the radio industry (sorry no names) and they've said for the forseeable future they will just sit and wait to see what happens if anything with DRM, so we just go round in circles.


The fact the UK has invested in DAB does hold back DRM to some degree, particularly as there has not yet been sufficient return on the investment, but as I have just said there is awareness of it from the broadcasters and regulator.
My question would be why is a country like Holland, which has plenty of unused AM frequencies and where digital radio has not got off the ground, seemingly just going with DAB and not mentioning DRM. RTE is testing DAB. Slovenia is putting in DAB. I thought the idea now was multistandard radios with countries launching DAB/DRM platforms?
If that happened it would give more momentum to the UK using it.

radiomann
18-01-2006, 20:40
Originally posted by MikeB


The fact the UK has invested in DAB does hold back DRM to some degree, particularly as there has not yet been sufficient return on the investment, but as I have just said there is awareness of it from the broadcasters and regulator.
My question would be why is a country like Holland, which has plenty of unused AM frequencies and where digital radio has not got off the ground, seemingly just going with DAB and not mentioning DRM. RTE is testing DAB. Slovenia is putting in DAB. I thought the idea now was multistandard radios with countries launching DAB/DRM platforms?
If that happened it would give more momentum to the UK using it.

I don't know why Holland doesn't seem interested in DRM, but when Holland makes any changes they almost do it overnight, as for DAB/DRM radios when they come out will be great but they have to have the programming and 100% audio and though tests have been made usually only for a few hours per day that will never give an overall picture of what DRM does, there is no real tests for the UK at night apart from the London tests which I can't really get, my real problem Mike is there isn't anything worth listening to and Short Wave is not stable enough, I know I keep saying that but no-one seems to understand that part of what I'm saying, it may be ok for some broadcasters like DW who have a whole range of frequencies they can use at all times of the day but broadcasters like RTL who rely on commercials I don't see it working on SW, so how do they get around it?

I am a simple radio listener, not techy in anyway so maybe I'm wrong in what I say, but we will wait and see.

DRM-Fan
18-01-2006, 20:49
Originally posted by MikeB


On what basis are you making that assertion given that Ofcom is to ask whether AM licences should be re-advertised as DRM ones and the participation in shortwave DRM tests on 9, 11 and 26 Mhz by UK commercial radio companies and the three major Uk transmitter companies.

Which AM licences ? You can imagine how long this will take!

The lack of medium wave UK frequencies not already licenced has been mentioned and analysed on other forums as well as by Ofcom itself.
Which frequency or frequencies could be used for UK DRM tests apart from 225?

As I said before I think a lot of the freqs used by BBC regional radio could be used

The BBC WS DRM service is not targeting the UK as far as I am aware and Radio Luxembourg's tests have not been wholly successful.
Are you now talking about shortwave DRM? Given that there were tests towards the UK from Moosbrun by UK commercial companies and religious broadcasters those could resume. WRN is also interested in DRM so they might be interested in putting out the WRN English service on shortwave via DRM. We need to get receivers on the market in quantity to make that feasible. Given the amount of stations on FM, DAB and digital satellite in the UK there's only a limited amount of potential for DRM here at the moment, more if the AM licencees agree to readvertise the frequencies for DRM use and Ofcom are going to pose the question.

DRM seems to making more progress in the UK than in many other countries in Europe it seems to me.

I'm meaning MW. If BBC WS is for Europe then if you can count Luxy just the 1 station then. Just a shame no one in the radio business is simply interested in the DRM technology without first thinking how much can we make out of this financially. No anoraks in radio these days in other words !

radiomann
18-01-2006, 20:54
Originally posted by DRM-Fan


I'm meaning MW. If BBC WS is for Europe then if you can count Luxy just the 1 station then. Just a shame no one in the radio business is simply interested in the DRM technology without first thinking how much can we make out of this financially. No anoraks in radio these days in other words !

Well I read somewhere that even RTL are not too happy with the way their DRM services are performing, and sadly there not.

radiomann
20-01-2006, 16:38
Originally posted by dk8cb


No matter what negative assertions radiomann or DRM-Fan are regularly venting on this thread, I myself do listen to DRM daily and I can assure anybody that I am enjoying it quite a lot.
Perhaps it's just the wrong prorammes you can receive at your place.

Roland

Can I ask do you enjoy digital tv if it goes blocky in the middle of something you want to watch? I don't and I don't like listening to digital radio with dropouts, DRM does that maybe you should read your own reception reports before calling people negative.

Paul

dk8cb
20-01-2006, 18:07
Originally posted by radiomann
I don't and I don't like listening to digital radio with dropouts, DRM does that maybe you should read your own reception reports before calling people negative.


Perhaps with the exception of BBC WS on 1296 kHz, where I am outside of the target area, I regularly get well over 99% audio, see my reports regarding reception on 9470 kHz and 1530 kHz. In fact, I am at a point, where the percentage of decoded audio is often not limited by reception deficiencies but by technical problems at the TX sites or at the source of the programmes (still after so many years of testing!). But these may finally be overcome and instead of just complaining, I keep trying to help broadcasters find the causes, not without success.
And even with 97% of audio, listening is quite often still enjoyable. Compare to eg SW AM or even sometimes FM in the car, where you will also have moments with unintelligibility due to selective fading (unless in case of SW, you have a synchronous detector or you are listening in SSB) or multipath reception.
Shortwave will always have it's physical limitations.

I know, it's not easy, but broadcasters should also take the organisational measures to ensure a clean signal. Yes, I am talking about choosing the right TX site, the right frequency at the right time of the day and even about trying to take administrative measures through their regulator to do something about other on-channel stations or those on neighbouring channels transmitting broadband signals and thus defying all internationally agreed standards.

Also, if you look at daytime reception of mediumwave DRM signals in the target areas, there is not much to complain about. I admit, nighttime reception is still an issue but it also seems to be related to the kind of transmitting antenna used and the last word is not yet spoken.

Roland

radiomann
20-01-2006, 18:34
Originally posted by dk8cb


Perhaps with the exception of BBC WS on 1296 kHz, I regularly get well over 99% audio, see my reports regarding reception on 9470 kHz and 1530 kHz. In fact, I am at a point, where the percentage of decoded audio is often not limited by reception deficiencies but by technical problems at the TX sites or at the source of the programmes (still after so many years of testing!). But these may finally be overcome and instead of just complaining, I keep trying to help broadcasters find the causes, not without success.
And even with 97% of audio, listening is quite often still enjoyable. Compare to eg SW AM or even sometimes FM in the car, where you will also have moments with unintelligibility due to selective fading (unless in case of SW, you have a synchronous detector or you are listening in SSB) or multipath reception.
Shortwave will always have it's physical limitations.

I know, it's not easy, but broadcasters should also take the organisational measures to ensure a clean signal. Yes, I am talking about choosing the right TX site, the right frequency at the right time of the day and even about trying to take administrative measures through their regulator to do something about other on-channel stations or those on neighbouring channels transmitting broadband signals and thus defying all internationally agreed standards.

Also, if you look at daytime reception of mediumwave DRM signals in the target areas, there is not much to complain about. I admit, nighttime reception is still an issue but it also seems to be related to the kind of transmitting antenna used and the last word is not yet spoken.

Roland

Well here is just one, I think your missing my point.

Jan. 1
It didn't take long for the propagation conditions to fade out after I had tuned in.

Roland

Attachment: 12080_060101_dk8cb.png

dk8cb
20-01-2006, 18:40
Originally posted by radiomann
Well here is just one, I think your missing my point.

Jan. 1
It didn't take long for the propagation conditions to fade out after I had tuned in.

Didn't I write that shortwave will always have it's physical limitations? Time will come, when a receiver will automatically switch to a better frequency in a case like the one cited above.

I have been a listener to the BBC WS on AM for many, many years since the age of about 14 and I have never had such a good audio quality and such enjoyable reception as I do now, so for me, DRM is something which made me listen more than ever before and a technological improvement which I won't miss. I also believe, that there will be others who do share my assertion.

Roland

radiomann
20-01-2006, 18:47
Originally posted by dk8cb


Didn't I write that shortwave will always have it's physical limitations?

I have been a listener to the BBC WS on AM for many, many years since the age of about 14 and I have never had such a good audio quality and such enjoyable reception as I do now, so for me, DRM is something which made me listen more than ever before and a technological improvement which I won't miss.

Roland

Roland I have never said the sound quality is poor, It's great, what I have always said is SW AM or DRM is unstable so why do broadcasters like RTL who rely on commercials use it, that is my debate, 6095, 5990 after sunset useless, 1440 it's either good or bad, 7145 southern half of the UK poor, 7295 better but average audio 60%.
DRM will work for DW and other International broadcaster as they mainly broadcast a few hours on differant frequencies which works.

Paul

radiomann
20-01-2006, 18:52
Also how are broadcasters going to know if there are problems if people like me don't say so? That is not been negative that is helping them hopefully.

Paul

radiomann
20-01-2006, 20:50
So what happened to the list I did that never performed 99% or more recently from Roland?

Paul

dk8cb
21-01-2006, 20:07
Originally posted by radiomann
So what happened to the list I did that never performed 99% or more recently from Roland?

Paul
It is exactly there, where you chose to post it for whatever reason.
I already wondered what your post here was about until I got a mail from Simone (thanks!), in which she told me that you had posted it in the 5875 kHz thread.

I didn't say that I always get over 99%, I said "regularly". If you look at my 9470 kHz reports, you will see that reception is mostly in that range with the exception of days with technical problems in the transmitted signal. Yes, some improvement is still needed in this regard but I have already said that.
And regarding interference from CRI's wideband transmission, which is actually carried out from Cerrik, Albania, it is my opinion that something should be done via the HFCC organisation since CRI has registered this transmission there. I guess all members of HFCC should adhere to international standards which include restricting HF broadcasts to the standard +/-5 kHz bandwidth.

But this is no fault of the DRM system, it only demonstrates that some administrative tasks have to be carried out as well, as I have also written in a post above. But even with interference from CRI, my results on 9470 kHz are mostly over 99% decoded audio.

And currently, I am enjoying very good reception of BBC WS on 1296 kHz, even outside of the target area. :)

Roland

radiomann
21-01-2006, 20:16
Originally posted by dk8cb


It is exactly there, where you chose to post it.
I already wondered what your post here was about until I got a mail from Simone (thanks!), in which she told me that you had posted it in the 5875 kHz thread.

I didn't say that I always get over 99%, I said "regularly". If you look at my 9470 kHz reports, you will see that reception is mostly in that range with the exception of days with technical problems in the transmitted signal. Yes, some improvement is still needed in this regard but I have already said that.
And regarding interference from CRI's wideband transmission, which is actually carried out from Cerrik, Albania, it is my opinion that something should be done via the HFCC organisation since CRI has registered this transmission there. I guess all members of HFCC should adhere to international standards which include restricting HF broadcasts to the standard +/-5 kHz bandwidth.

But this is no fault of the DRM system, it only demonstrates that some administrative tasks have to be carried out as well, as I have also written in a post above. But even with interference from CRI, my results on 9470 kHz are mostly over 99% decoded audio.

And currently, I am enjoying very good reception of BBC WS on 1296 kHz. :)

Roland

Fair enough Roland, I just don't like being accussed of making negative remarks, maybe it doesn't work well for me because of the area I live or I have a poor antenna, your results in general are very good and hope you keep getiing good results, I will say no more on the matter.

Paul

DRM-OM
18-04-2006, 12:17
I have been a listener to the BBC WS on AM for many, many years since the age of about 14
the same with me (and that's for 25years now) ...
and I have never had such a good audio quality and such enjoyable reception as I do now, so for me, DRM is something which made me listen more than ever before and a technological improvement which I won't miss.
that's true, but only if it works.

Good service has been on 12095 and 15070 AM for years also, with no dropouts, but occasional selective fading.
From what I know from the weekends BBC seems to be very good during the day, but outside of working time: nothing that brings me to believe that DRM is a good thing.
Many dropouts on 1296 (where I listened to in the past in AM with no problems, as I mentioned in a different threat before), no alternative frequency, so please keep that 648 in AM!!!
Deutsche Welle in the evening: the same: either poor sound quality or dropouts.
1440, as mentioned above: useless (but clear signal in AM).

Most of the members of this forum are very technically minded and some have a long history of listening to international broadcasting.
These people, of course, know about ionosphere etc. and can cope with it. But DRM's aim is "to bring the AM-bands back to the masses", this won't work as long as there is no reliable coverage throughout the day.

Conclusion: local and regional services: o.k., but not for long distance with a commercial background.

dk8cb
18-04-2006, 16:42
the same with me (and that's for 25years now) ...

about a decade more with me ...


Good service has been on 12095 and 15070 AM for years also, with no dropouts, but occasional selective fading.

Those were the days. 15070 kHz was my favourite for years and I never understood why it was abandoned altogether. I guess the signal on 15070 kHz came from Cyprus but I don't know for sure.
But one could get often get BBC WS on 9410, 12095 and 15070 kHz simultaneously although they mostly mentioned 5975 and a 41 m band frequency (both of which never worked so well) as the main frequencies for my area.

But then after many years of excellent reception on the aforementioned frequencies, audio quality got worse when a new audio feed satellite distribution system came into use about 10 years ago. Nowadays audio quality on BBC WS AM is still bad and can't cope with what I was used to over those many years.
This makes me believe that the BBC thinks we should not really listen to their shortwave AM services anymore but instead use the internet (not so good quality actually) or put up a satellite dish and listen on Hotbird.
The fact that the BBC has also stopped AM transmissions to North America almost completely is another sign of this kind of policy.

From what I know from the weekends BBC seems to be very good during the day,...
Yes, indeed. We have arrived at a point where the percentage of decoded audio is often not limited by propagation but by technical problems at the transmitter sites, but I must admit that reliability has improved over the course of the last year.

The lack of a reliable BBC DRM service in the evening, at least for southern Germany and also for Southern Europe as a whole, still remains a problem. 1296 kHz is nice and I listen a lot but results vary and sometimes, when the percentage of decoded audio drops to around 90%, dropouts become really annoying. DRM transmissions from Cyprus should perhaps work in the evening but there don't seem to be any attempts do put such transmissions into service.

Roland

markp
19-05-2006, 12:27
Here's an interesting, US-centric perspective from Harry Helms's blog.

http://futureofradio.typepad.com/the_future_of_radio/drm/index.html

FritzWue
19-05-2006, 14:19
Sorry, but Mr. Helms seems to have a very limited horizon when discussing DRM on shortwave.
I would like him to take seat in my car and drive around a lot like I have to do every day in my job.
Then he would also realize the advantages of listening to international broadcasters with the latest news and discussions in good audio quality.
In real life this works with DRM on shortwave.
He may also try to get these programs in the car via satellite, but with geostationary satellites this will not work in central europe, and something like Sirius isn't cheaper and more reliable either.
Podcasting (yesterday's news) and streaming (outside town?) are no alternatives.

DRM-OM
01-06-2006, 23:14
Hi Fritz,

Answer to your post (http://futureofradio.typepad.com/the_future_of_radio/2006/05/euros_defend_di.html)

richard
02-06-2006, 13:29
Satellite radio would be great if there was a worldwide standard. As it is there are a number of competing systems each requiring separate pieces of equipment to receive. If international broadcasters want to encourage such a system they should agree on a worldwide standard, like with DRM, and also find ways financing its provision through bodies like the EU or by renting space from commercial operators.

In Europe the media markets are quite different in individual countries so I guess there would not be much demand for a commercial pan European satellite service, given the cost. In individual countries much of the extra demand for channels can be met through digital terrestrial broadcasting anyway.

Richard

DRM-OM
02-06-2006, 19:01
Viatis / Worldspace (http://www.worldspace.com/press/05_08_2006.html)
Ondas (http://www.delphigrundig.com/uploads/media/ONDAS_Delphi_SatelliteRadio_Europe.pdf)
EMAP (http://www.newsfox.com/pte.mc?pte=050127022)

however, a similar venture called "Global Radio" never came to reality, the only thing you could see was a website (which has also disappeared in the meantime)
Article (http://www.spaceandtech.com/digest/sd2001-13/sd2001-13-004.shtml)

mitajohn
19-07-2006, 16:27
Hi all,

Continental Electronics' Mina Named Chairman of USA DRM. More in the following link, from RADIO magazine's Digital Radio Update : http://beradio.com/digital_radio_update/Digital_radio_update_071906/#contin

John.

FritzWue
27-07-2006, 18:50
Not my point and not directly about DRM, but interesting thoughts:
http://www.hear2.com/2005/05/the_premature_d.html

tedex
25-12-2006, 18:40
It really is an unfortunate situation. Here in the US, HD radio is just now taking off, barely. Radios are still, at cheapest, $100, and the stations araen't offering much of interest on the HD-2 channels.

DRM could be an entirely new revenue stream for broadcasters if the 26Mhz band were to be used here. IF manufacturers would understand that with the advent of streaming audio, home theater PC, iPods, etc., people are worn out on $250 solutions to listen to music or whatever. If a sub $100 multi-format clock radio were available and IF broadcasters commit to creating something of interest, then the medium is viable. Otherwise, here in the US, DRM will die, HD will remain boring and we will just have to wait for the next flash in the pan technology to come along.

tedex
25-12-2006, 21:07
It really is an unfortunate situation. Here in the US, HD radio is just now taking off, barely. Radios are still, at cheapest, $100, and the stations araen't offering much of interest on the HD-2 channels.

DRM could be an entirely new revenue stream for broadcasters if the 26Mhz band were to be used here. IF manufacturers would understand that with the advent of streaming audio, home theater PC, iPods, etc., people are worn out on $250 solutions to listen to music or whatever. If a sub $100 multi-format clock radio were available and IF broadcasters commit to creating something of interest, then the medium is viable. Otherwise, here in the US, DRM will die, HD will remain boring and we will just have to wait for the next flash in the pan technology to come along.

interesting that the last post prior to mine was in July. That is the level of interest in DRM.

tedex
25-12-2006, 21:29
case in point. If I am unable to successfully receive a DRM broadcast originating less than 2500 miles away, using a 30 ft. antenna, digital radio and PC to decode, then what hope has the average Joe Consumer?

fibber
26-12-2006, 14:27
case in point. If I am unable to successfully receive a DRM broadcast originating less than 2500 miles away, using a 30 ft. antenna, digital radio and PC to decode, then what hope has the average Joe Consumer?

I'd come closer to thinking that your soundcard has problems. You are in a perfectly good place to copy the RNW Montsinery transmission. If you aren't gettin 99%+ audio on most days via that broadcast, perhaps your soundcard is not ideal for DRM. Look at the logs for this station. I know from the activity here (DRMRX) and on DRMNA that folks are in Nevada, Arizona and Georgia are able to get 99% or better on almost a daily basis.

Consumer uptake of DRM will be slow at best. Too many other things taking people's interest. Look at analog shortwave. Effectively dead in the USA and has been for 20 years or more. Standalone radios will help, but they will need to be DRM/HD/FM RDS and they oughta make them XM/Siruis compatible too.

Don't get me wrong, I am one of the most devoted North American DRM boosters, but I'm not sure how much hope I have of it being a household name. I'd settle for decent standalone radios and a handful of signals aimed at us (I guess we have this second item already).

I run 4 soundcards here and each works with varying degrees of success on DRM. See if you can find a Telex P-500 USB on ebay or somewhere. Some of these little USB sound interface devices work very well. The same I5XWW IF board you bought has yielded me over 34dB SNR with my FT-817.

Regards,
Christopher / K6FIB

DRM-OM
09-03-2007, 19:07
DRM doesn't seem to change station managers mind about the future of international broadcasting ...

Radio Japan cutting down language services (http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/?p=7431)

DBourne
10-03-2007, 06:51
DRM doesn't seem to change station managers mind about the future of international broadcasting ...

Radio Japan cutting down language services (http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/?p=7431)
Will be interesting to see if Japan Radio keeps the hour's weekly DRM transmission from Rampisham?.
If Japan Radio decide to expand it's DRM transmissions, then maybe they can persaude Sony to start producing DRM sets as Sony have been part of the DRM consortium for some time.

mitajohn
26-07-2007, 06:24
Hi all,

Read this article from RADIO magazine's Digital Radio Update: http://radiomagonline.com/digital_radio_update/digital-radio-update-07252007/index.html#drm

MikeB
27-07-2007, 11:46
All the non confidential responses to the Ofcom Future of Radio consultation have now been posted

The Radio Centre one, which reflects the views of the UK commercial radio companies, deals with DRM in sections 8.35 to 8.43 including these reservations:

8.41 The 9kHz channel spacing matrix will set an upper limit on the audio quality available for digital Medium Wave, though this would be less of an issue for speech stations.
Although the BBC is engaged in a year long trial of DRM in medium wave at Plymouth (see Appendix D), not enough is known yet about propagation characteristics at these frequencies for digital signals.
The majority (by listener hours) of AM broadcasting is already simulcast on DAB, so operators may not be inclined to invest in often ageing MF transmission systems for DRM.

8.42 But the biggest single risk to adopting DRM in the Medium Wave band is uncertainty over the availability of suitable receivers. Although there are around half a dozen sets available from specialist suppliers, DRM is a long way from the high street and a mass consumer proposition. It is too early to provide any reliable forecast of set penetration, especially in regard to the price elasticity of demand, and more work is required. Until this has been done, which would be part of the responsibilities of the working group, we cannot rule out the possibility that DRM for domestic broadcasting could suffer complete market failure.

8.43 Our conclusion, then, is that while it is feasible from a technical and frequency planning point of view to convert existing MF assignments to DRM, much more information is needed before decisions are made. However, although DRM at MF is a long term proposition, these decisions need to be informed by rigorous analysis, and a clear signal sent to set manufacturers in particular as to the future direction. This is in line with our policy of determining the shape of radio’s digital future sooner than later.

There's a later section on DRM, 8.57 to 8.63 which mentions use of DRM on 26 Mhz and VHF Band 1 and 2 and concludes:

8.63 We agree with Ofcom’s view that DRM could be a useful complement to DAB, but recommend that frequency bands other than MW should be investigated.

The document can be found at:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/futureradio/responses/

as RadioCentre2

The BBC's view is also there which I have already posted a summary of in the BBC Devon tests thread:

http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showpost.php?p=39568&postcount=43

pb1
27-07-2007, 13:53
In The Netherlands, partly for political reasons, a company called Broadcasting Partners is helping commercial FM stations to add additional stations on the same frequency. They use the FMeXtra system.

Does anyone know if this system is comparable with DRM+? And is the MR27024 capable (if needed with software modifications) to recieve this?

mitajohn
09-08-2007, 16:18
Hi all,

At the International Broadcasting Technical Specialised Meeting the second in its kind, around 50 delegates were present at the 26 April 2007 at EBU.

The meeting concentrated on “delivery methods for International Broadcasting and their evolution”. Several Speakers made presentations, grouped in three sessions...... more on the attached "pdf"

mitajohn
10-08-2007, 07:49
Hi all,

Following my previous post, at the meeting, Mr. Andy Giefer from DW, in his contribution presented the assessment of the slot quality (the attached "jpg") in formula and table form, which would be useful to us for evaluating our reception results on the same base.

simone
13-08-2007, 20:29
Hi John,
we had a database for reception results here on the forum a long time ago, analysing the slots in a similar way (actually that was only for registered FhG decoder users, not all forum members). I think the percentages we get from DRMcalc are OK, as you can always select an interval for analysing the results if your log was longer than the actual transmission. Btw DW have the advantage that they know which dropouts were Tx related ;)
Also the 3rd session of the meeting that you did not mention was quite interesting too!
Simone

mvs sarma
14-08-2007, 06:29
Hi all,

Read this article from RADIO magazine's Digital Radio Update: http://radiomagonline.com/digital_radio_update/digital-radio-update-07252007/index.html#drm

These DW transmissions are regularly available from -Srilanka (Trincomaly) at UTC timings 05-00 to 06-00 and 08-00 to 09-00 on 12070. The signal is quite strong and very good SNR.

mitajohn
14-08-2007, 13:36
Hi all,

@Simone : My intention was to propose a "rule" or a "reference" for the subjective evaluation terminology ie what anybody means by "nearly perfect", "very good"........and the table of slot evaluation, in question, looked very good to me.

Also the 3rd session of the meeting that you did not mention was quite interesting too!

May be you are right. Ok, come on, take the floor....

mitajohn
18-09-2007, 15:29
Hi all,

From the "Radio World" Sept. 2007 issue:

"Shortwave Awaits DRM in United States.

DRM Proponents Eye 2008 Olympics, 26 MHz Band.

by Jeff White, 7.18.2007

The author is vice chairman of the U.S. DRM Group and president of the National Association of Shortwave Broadcasters.

ELKHART, Ind. U.S. shortwave broadcasters anticipate the availability of the first low-cost Digital Radio Mondiale receiver by the end of the year, though no DRM transmissions are originating yet in the United States, despite FCC approval.
China may begin DRM transmissions in time for the 2008 Olympics,..... more here: http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.7242.html

MikeB
18-09-2007, 16:27
Hi all,

From the "Radio World" Sept. 2007 issue:

"Shortwave Awaits DRM in United States.

DRM Proponents Eye 2008 Olympics, 26 MHz Band.

by Jeff White, 7.18.2007

The author is vice chairman of the U.S. DRM Group and president of the National Association of Shortwave Broadcasters.

ELKHART, Ind. U.S. shortwave broadcasters anticipate the availability of the first low-cost Digital Radio Mondiale receiver by the end of the year, though no DRM transmissions are originating yet in the United States, despite FCC approval.
China may begin DRM transmissions in time for the 2008 Olympics,..... more here: http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.7242.html

If you check the tapes of Mr. Penneroux's speech he says the new receivers may be available by the end of the year at best and that $50 is the factory price not retail price.
http://www.shortwave.org/mediafiles.htm

Nothing about China adopting DRM for the 2008 Olympics announced at IFA or IBC as far as I am aware, and indeed the article says broadcasts may begin, at the Hainan HFCC Conference in 2006 the Chinese representative stated:

Mrs. Fang Wang, (RTC) stated, "DRM is still in experimental phase in China. Eighty percent of the population are peasants. Most people do not have enough money to pay current DRM receiver prices. It is not whether the audience is able to afford it but if it is able to buy it or not. Right now it is still uncertain if DRM will succeed in China."

World DMB put out a press release July 7 this year saying that the main platform for digital radio in China would be DAB:
http://www.worlddab.org/upload/uploaddocs/MODIBEC_Press_Release_Final.pdf

DRM-Fan
17-10-2007, 00:07
Sorry to sound pessimistic but DRM will never really become 'BIG' IMO...The dominance of net radio and the plethera of cheap wi-fi radios like the Tevion offering over 7,700 stations at the touch of a button makes DRM seem out of date before it's even really known about. Clever technology but it has arrived far too late. 10 years ago and it would be very popular for MW at least in the UK. Now no one has any interest and ever will have here..

richard
17-10-2007, 10:03
I agree, in a few years time WiFi/internet radio will make other radio technologies redundant in the home, at least in Europe. I think a lot of new technology manages to find a niche though. The car radio and outdoor personal radio market are perhaps areas where DRM could find a role. All these type of radios will have digital processors built in, so DRM could be added as an option with little cost. Perhaps specialist stations that couldn't broadcast on DAB but wanted to get national mobile coverage could use DRM.

maxpower
18-10-2007, 14:15
"The car radio and outdoor personal radio market are perhaps areas where DRM could find a role."

Yes, indeed!

And don't forget the huge areas in the world where you can't get Cable Internet or it is too expensive for normal people. Thats what DRM is for! (If finally cheap chipsets arrive in the market. Cheap (3$) RF Frontends for 150 kHZ - 200 MHz shall arrive next spring...)

HC7AW
18-10-2007, 14:58
Hi all,

I think there is a lot more to the whole equation than just the technology and what it can do. The bigger question is how do the providers of these systems make their money?

Once you have software defined radios (and by the way, cell phones are radios), you can put any digital standard you want into the radio. But someone has to pay for the internet bandwidth or the cell phone bandwidth or whatever. So what is in it for the bandwidth provider?

WiFi sounds great but where does the guy installing the infrastructure get his money? He's going to have to charge the end user or the person who provides the programming. The later is probably a lot more difficult to do than the former.

Right now cell phone companies are making their money on phone calls. But what happens then cell phones include internet access and people start using their internet bandwidth to make phone calls? Suddenly cell phone providers have to find a new financial model.

What is going to happen to internet bandwidth when the whole world starts listening to the radio over internet? The internet starts slowing down. More investment is needed in infrastructure and the end user eventually has to pay for that.

So I think the future of radio is much more complicated than just the technology question. In fact, the best technology does not always win the market (i.e. BetaMax versus VHS video technology). I think the future is really up for grabs right now, which is why it is so difficult for guys like me who are in the industry to know what to invest in. The market is just too cluttered with options at the moment.

Doug

MikeB
03-11-2007, 11:31
Martin Peters in the November 2007 Monitoring Monthly in his Europe
Broadcast scene column reports on his visit to the International Broadcasting Convention in Amsterdam, Europe's largest exhibition and forum for all things radio with 47,000 visitors and in excess of 1300 exhibitors from over 120 countries. DRM had a stand but it was reduced in size compared with previous appearances. Several examples of DRM radios, many in prototype phase, were in a glass showcase, four were on a shelf at the rear of the display area but two had malfunctioned so could not be demonstrated. A car radio from Blaupunkt, suitable for DRM reception, worked for a few seconds at a time before failing. After mentioning the Himalaya DRM2009 Martin concludes:

"So, yet another year passes with the mantra of "DRM soon" ringing in our ears. However if the lack-lustre display at the IBC is anything to go by, everyone concerned is just going through the motions whilst planning a face-saving exit strategy from this industry-driven white elephant."

mitajohn
20-11-2007, 19:03
Hi all,

From the Radio World International Newsbytes :: Digital Radio
11.20.2007

The World Broadcasting Unions (WBU), the coordinating body for associations that represent broadcasting networks around the world, has developed a guide explaining digital radio technologies and options.

The guide was written by the technical experts who work with the systems and covers Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM), Eureka-147 DAB, ISDB-TSB, HD Radio, digital satellite radio broadcasting and Internet radio. http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0139/t.9753.html

Hard copies of the book are available from WBU, but is also available as a PDF download: http://www.nabanet.com/wbuarea/library/Docs/Public/DRG-2007.pdf.

mitajohn
03-12-2007, 12:45
Hi all,

May be this is interesting : http://radiomagonline.com/currents/radio-currents-112607/#drm

simone
04-12-2007, 12:46
... and here is the original press release (http://drm.org/pdfs/press_release_146.pdf).
Simone

DRM-Fan
08-12-2007, 13:00
DRM will never get anywhere now...wi-fi radio is the future IMO. Over 8500 stations from around the world mostly in very good quality at the press of a few buttons... radios from £40 now

pb1
11-02-2008, 15:59
In stead of the discussion about the future of DRM, I would link to a nice editorial about the future of DAB.

BBC News article (http://bbc.dracos.co.uk/?nobanner=1;page=/1/hi/business/7238768.stm)

Digger
11-02-2008, 19:20
It would be more appropriate to put that link on a DAB Forum :rolleyes: :confused:

DBourne
12-02-2008, 09:45
It is relavent to DRM because DAB and DRM are complementary, Digitalone is a DRM consortium member and they and the BBC were doing tests in Devon to see if DRM can be used to fill the last 10% of UK population coverage and also for small stations where DAB transmission is uneconomic, if DAB it self is not economic then DRM will not progress in the UK.
However the BBC and ch4 have put out a joint statement.
Jenny Abramsky, director of BBC Audio & Music, and Nathalie Schwarz, chair of 4 Digital Group, issued the following joint statement:
"RAJAR's figures last week showed that listening to digital radio grew for the fourth quarter running and that DAB listening has topped 100 million hours. The DRDB also reported a substantial increase in sales of DAB sets before Christmas and forecast that household penetration would grow to 30% in 2008."It is clear to us that DAB has an exciting future in a fast converging UK media industry. The BBC and 4 Digital Group are committed to digital radio long term and both believe that working together, and with the rest of the radio industry, is vital if we are to secure the UK's position in the forefront of digital radio development.

"We want to work together to make the very best of UK radio available to everyone, while continuing to compete to provide the very best audio content that will be the primary means of ensuring the success of digital radio in the years to come
There is also from Mediablog
The BBC World Service (BBCWS) announces on its website that the remaining BBCWS shortwave transmissions to Europe will close on 18th February 2008.
But does not mention about the future of the shortwave or the 1296khz DRM tests to Europe.

pb1
12-02-2008, 11:33
Little more on above mentioned quote from bbcworldservice.com:

February 2008
The remaining BBC World Service shortwave transmissions to Europe will close on 18th February 2008.

This change is being made in line with listener trends in radio. Increasing numbers of people around the world are choosing to listen to radio on a range of other platforms including FM, satellite and online, with fewer listening on shortwave.

Alternatives

This is particularly the case in Europe, where the majority of shortwave transmissions ceased in March 2007. The current closures affect the remaining transmissions heard in southern Europe.

This will be a loss to some listeners, but there are alternative ways of hearing BBC programmes.

(so western Russia frequencies are still there, but how will North Africa be supplied?)

MikeB
25-02-2008, 11:02
"From both formal and informal discussions among participants at the HFCC, it is now clear that the proposed DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale) system, that would have converted analogue Shortwave to digital, FM like quality reception would hardly be implemented if ever on a large scale, beyond the current experimental stage........there are no plans from any large manufacturer to produce such (DRM) receivers now."

Full report, item 2 at:
http://mt-shortwave.blogspot.com/2008/02/news-from-european-gospel-radio.html

maxpower
25-02-2008, 11:11
I read that two days ago. The source seems to be only IRRSS (Nexus/ European Gospel Radio).

I would like to know who ("formal" and "informal") gave that information, because I could't confirm that so far . Or has that been a "political" press release to keep the customers "on Board" of EGR?

Does anybody have >>direct<< Information from the HFCC-Conference?

HC7AW
28-02-2008, 18:59
Hi all,

I saw this posted as well when it came up on the mt-shortwave blog. It didn't square well with the report that I got from my Frequency Manager who was at the HFCC conference. So, I sent the link to the DRM consortium and they wrote to the Director of European Gospel Radio to find out where they got this information. The answer was that this is NOT the official position of the EGR. It was taken from an internal memo meant for internal use only, not publication.

In fact the article has been pulled from the mt-shortwave blog. The link given earlier no longer works.

Doug

radiomann
03-09-2008, 13:19
Well it's been nearly 3 years since i started this thread and yet very little seems to of changed, well apart from less to listen too now? I still have my winradio pc card but not in the computer maybe i should see if it still works? What a pity DRM never worked out, i guess we wait to see what if anything happens with DRM +

Paul

mitajohn
09-09-2008, 13:54
Hi all,

That's good news: http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0139/t.15579.html

Brendan1
09-09-2008, 16:00
I'm only about 2200km/1300miles from the transmitter, and am really looking forward to the tests. I'll be among the first to know (and log) when they come on air.

DRM is already legal to use here: it is the only FCC authorized digital mode for HF use. What has to be changed is the authority for domestic broadcasting: shortwave is specifically not allowed for internal/domestic US broadcasting, and that must changed by regulatory action. If that is changed, DRM may have an entirely future here in North America, since it would allow for 26 MHz stations to be operated domestically. Many independent US shortwave broadcasters get around this regulation by broadcasting to the "Americas" using north/south arrays or omnidirectional antennas, which is perfectly legal but I feel is avoiding the actual issue.

We also have a transmitter limitation: nothing less than 100kW on shortwave! The DART proposal has been given authority to use less as a experimental digital mode, and this issue would also have to be changed for domestic broadcasting, especially at 26 MHz.

For us, this could be a major change in broadcast regulations if DART wins approval after the tests. :D

Zalm
11-09-2008, 23:54
We also have a transmitter limitation: nothing less than 100kW on shortwave!

Actually the minimum is 50 kW analog, 10 kW digital:

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2008/73/751/

Brendan1
12-09-2008, 15:27
Wow, I stand corrected! I know it hasn't always been that low, but hey, memories can be superseded by new regulations.

Thanks for the posting!

Brendan1
13-09-2008, 02:25
In reading the documents cited, the regulatory change was to meet the requirements of future digital transmission methods, adopt DRM specifically, and harmonize US regulations with WRC-03.

Placed away in an omnibus change like that, no wonder the power change wasn't well publicized to the public at large (not broadcasters, who knew all about it!).

mitajohn
13-09-2008, 08:26
Hi all,

I have just received the attached interesting documents.

Digger
13-09-2008, 12:25
Hm... or did I miss out something?

mitajohn
24-03-2009, 18:32
Hi all,

I think thats good news :http://www.radioworld.com/article/76544

If somebody can provide us with a summary of the Russian text in the link http://minkomsvjaz.ru/ministry/170/174/6780.shtml mentioned inside the above url would be very informative.

mitajohn
15-04-2009, 21:30
Hi all,

This is encouraging :http://www.radioworld.com/article/78544

mvs sarma
24-04-2009, 11:39
Hi all,

I think thats good news :http://www.radioworld.com/article/76544

If somebody can provide us with a summary of the Russian text in the link http://minkomsvjaz.ru/ministry/170/174/6780.shtml mentioned inside the above url would be very informative.
I have tried Google translator . Here is a saved .doc file.

Siber
28-04-2009, 10:42
Dear Sarma
dont be very upset that You have not understood the Russian service document under the reference. The usual Russian person also will understand from it only one, that DRM works are proceed. :) And this is good news too.
But it does not contain the information on cooperation with India
Regards,
Vladimir

mitajohn
26-05-2009, 13:14
Hi all,

This is really good news: http://www.radioworld.com/article/81206

Roy Sandgren
27-05-2009, 11:29
DAB+ is comming in several countries and the carbox Starwaves got dab+ and you get drm as standard. Several 1000 got drm revivers today and the selling of recivers is increasing to 500-1000 daily around the world.
Sweden will open for AM/DRM next year, great.

maxpower
27-05-2009, 12:09
Hello Roy!

DAB+ is comming in several countries and the carbox Starwaves got dab+ and you get drm as standard.

Are you sure that the Truckbox is capeble oft DRM+? I think it's based on the radioscape Module RS 500 which is (at this time) not working with DRM+ as far as I know.

Several 1000 got drm revivers today and the selling of recivers is increasing to 500-1000 daily around the world.

Hmm, I think you are a very optimistic man.
If you count the real hardware DRM receivers this may not be quite right. There have been build maybe a 1000 Morphy Richards, 1000 Himalayas and another 1500 Truckboxes which have been sold out (or not). I don't know the number of Technisat Receivers that have been build (and sold). All if them based on the radioscape chipset which works - lets say - quite fair.

We are know waiting for the new WR 608 Chipset which shall be used in the DiWave Radio coming in July. I hope that this radio will be working very well.

Don't understand me wrong. I'm DRM Enthusiastic, too. But I don't think it's good to exaggerate the development in the development in the receiver issue, because this happend to often ("big numbers of receivers come into the market this christmas..." is already a winged word in the german DX Community ).
Tell it as it is. But your help in the development in DRM is always very welcome! :)


Sweden will open for AM/DRM next year, great.

This would be very nice!

Stephan

Roy Sandgren
27-05-2009, 12:35
The truckbox is comming in a new design wich has dab+ and drm. Planned to be in mass production in Q3 this year. DAB+ is a new standard in several countries today and even drm comming in lot of countries like India and Russia as standard. A dab+ reciever can even recieve the old dab system.
End user price estimated as € 250 € or less + VAT.

maxpower
27-05-2009, 13:43
Thats very interesting news, Roy!

So Starwaves has developed a new Generation of Truckboxes which is much cheaper than the first generation and will already start production in fall this year?! I didn't hear about that before.

Is it with the same kind of operation via Remote Controll & RDS Display of the receiver? Which chipset they do they use?

There's no information about their new development at their website, which is quite unusual for them. :confused:

Stephan

Roy Sandgren
27-05-2009, 13:58
The box is still under developement and design. Most countries have dab+ as standard to national and regional radio in year 2010, even drm.
In Q3 we will know much more about the box.. Next year Sweden got dab+ and even new am-licences wich can be in DRM on 11 frequencies 24/7 and the 11-m band.

PP5AZF-Ataliba
27-05-2009, 16:26
Gostaria que vocês lessem os textos que estou colocando sobre o que está sendo feito para termos o sistema DRM em todas as bandas (ondas médias, ondas tropicais, ondas curtas e FM) no Brasil: "DRM in Brazil"

http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showpost.php?p=55887&postcount=27

I wish you read the texts that I am putting on what is being done to get the DRM system on all bands (medium waves, tropical wave, short wave and FM) in Brazil: "DRM in Brazil"

http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showpost.php?p=55887&postcount=27

Roy Sandgren
28-05-2009, 10:10
Very stupid to have 2 systems, HD-radio on mediumwave and DRM on shortwave. Needs 2 recievers or am I wrong???
DRM on 26MHz is great, can offer audio of 2x18 kHz or 2x20 kHz. better than HD-radio, but need a heigth of + 60 m and a power of 1 kW TX and a antiskywave antenna offers a radius of 50-100 km.

CT4RK
31-05-2009, 08:04
Ataliba
Bom dia!...Fico feliz por saber que finalmente o consorcio olhou para a América Latina, em especial para o Brasil!...Já era tempo né? A senhora Ruxandra sabe o que faz, e felizmente ela ja entendeu que o Brasil é um pais com enorme potencial para o DRM.
Um abraço desde Portugal
CT4RK
Carlos Mourato

DW HF Relay station - Sines Portugal

Roy Sandgren
31-05-2009, 08:08
Please translate that and Swizzerland toke HD-radio, too, stupidos !!!

CT4RK
31-05-2009, 08:25
Ataliba
Bom dia!...Fico feliz por saber que finalmente o consorcio olhou para a América Latina, em especial para o Brasil!...Já era tempo né? A senhora Ruxandra sabe o que faz, e felizmente ela ja entendeu que o Brasil é um pais com enorme potencial para o DRM.
Um abraço desde Portugal
CT4RK
Carlos Mourato

DW HF Relay station - Sines Portugal

English

Ataliba
Good morning! I`m happy for know, that finally, the DRM consorcium, look for Latin América, especially to Brasil!...It was time to do it! Mrs Ruxandra knows wath make! She already felt that Brasil is a huge potential for DRM.

Regards from Portugal
Carlos Mourato
DW HF relay station Sines Portugal

Roy Sandgren
31-05-2009, 08:46
Yap, plus India, Russia, China and Sweden etc. soon selling several 1000pcs aday. if we sell one drm reciver per sec, it will take hundred years untill all households got a reciver.

mvs sarma
31-05-2009, 10:32
Yap, plus India, Russia, China and Sweden etc. soon selling several 1000pcs aday. if we sell one drm reciver per sec, it will take hundred years untill all households got a reciver.

Making DRM popular and a receiver available and affordable in one thing.
The major aspect that might bother the reception quality is the Interference from most domestic appliances and from the digital terrestrial and radio based digital communication links used and/or proposed to be used by Electricity distribution agencies for their automatic metering , television internet transport links.
The next major interference is expected from non standard manufacture and supply of TV and other power supplies, Cell phone chargers without any line filters, and many more.
While the DRM technology is going woo customers on one side, the lack of co-ordination with other interfering agencies and non standard equipments are going to become a headache and definitely impede the growth of DRM.

Some special efforts are needed form the Transmitting groups and Radio receiver manufacturing groups and other service groups towards a clean reception platform across many countries.

Already the British Telecom supplied Power adopters of their local ISDN or DSL is already an issue that they are dealing with local Government over there.

ps: Unfiltered SMPS supplies of computer cabinets as supplied by China and Asian sources is another major interference source.

Roy Sandgren
01-06-2009, 10:04
The future will tell us if DRM get the market. More TX on air, more hours will have the answer.

DRM-OM
10-06-2009, 18:22
The major aspect that might bother the reception quality is the Interference from most domestic appliances and from the digital terrestrial and radio based digital communication links used and/or proposed to be used by Electricity distribution agencies for their automatic metering , television internet transport links.
The next major interference is expected from non standard manufacture and supply of TV and other power supplies, Cell phone chargers without any line filters, and many more.

And DRM is known to be very susceptible to these kinds of signal impairments ... no word of robustness whatsoever.

Roy Sandgren
11-06-2009, 07:02
The lobbyists of dab+ are working against all kinds of other better solutions like drm and drm+. DRM is great, due to the coverage of the groundwave in LW and MW. All new cars will have dab+, but not drm. The 11-m band drm get you a great audio of 2x20khz and a groundwave, better than dab+.
DRM+ in the VHF-band l = 47-68 MHz get you a speed of 183 bit and great coverage. DRM+ in band ll = 87,5 - 108 MHz gives you 4 channels in digital, same bandwith as FM, 300kHz. The licenceholder of DRM asking to much for the licence to use it in a transmitter, thats the great problem, in facto.

DRM-OM
11-06-2009, 12:50
Think of modern cars as a big transmitting station of all sorts of noises and whistles.
You have to take into account that is DRM (not DRM+, don't know much of that) is - as I explained before - is bad in coping with this, so that car manufacturers have to improve their shielding measures by more than 10 - even 20dB against current levels. This will be very costly.
Of course they are not amused with this.
Then there is no demand as there are still no consumer receivers around - that means no pressure of customers who buy a car to get the feature into the car.
Then - of course - developers and decision-makers in the car industrie also use dream and other Software-Radio solutions to get an impression. They get drop-outs - which will cause complaints of end customers - which they are not willing to provoke.

My opinion is that we will never see Shortwave Radio in cars again in noteworthy numbers.

maxpower
11-06-2009, 13:04
Hmm, maybe we should ask FritzWue for that. He has a car with DRM Reception. Maybe he can tell us how much afford it took to filter noise at his vehicle. His reception-results are quite impressive.

Stephan

Roy Sandgren
11-06-2009, 13:10
I have the carbox in my car, no roblems receiving RTL on shortwave and other drm stations, noice free receptions on shortwave.Only dropouts utside the main target area.

simone
11-06-2009, 13:28
Some other people tried DRM on mobile reception, I think all of them were quite successful as you can see here (http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?t=599&highlight=mobile)
I remember the first time I have seen mobile reception of DRM, a demonstration by VTC in the city of Amsterdam which was quite impressive.
Simone

DRM-OM
11-06-2009, 13:36
I also did some test drives with my camping car, mechanical injection etc.
Had impressive results of RTL in the basque region of Spain when driving through a valley. Modified standard car radio with a DRM module of BBC/CT.
Also had good results in passenger cars using a Laptop and Dream near Kaiserslautern and Pirmasens listening to different DW locations.
But half a year later when I wanted to show this to other - important - people except Sines everything else was just unstable.
Hmm, maybe we should ask FritzWue for that. He has a car with DRM Reception.
First thing is that he uses a whip antenna of 1,4m, something you will never see in modern top class cars - they all have elements integrated in the window glass combined with an amplifier. Dashboard radiation interference is one of the resulting problems.

All of us here are experienced users and know about Ionosphere etc.
But for the mass market reception just has to work - always.
And that's what DRM on Shortwave cannot garantee, even DRM has to accept physical laws.

FritzWue
11-06-2009, 14:25
Hmm, maybe we should ask FritzWue for that. He has a car with DRM Reception. Maybe he can tell us how much afford it took to filter noise at his vehicle. His reception-results are quite impressive.
Stephan

Thanks Stephan, sorry I'm late entering this discussion.
I am driving a german 2008 FORD Galaxy 1.9L TDCI and I modified - NOTHING! :)
There is some noise on 600-1000 kHz and on the 31m band, the rest is clear.

The 2m 5/8L antenna ontop is a visual problem.
Lately I was asked by a maybe 14 year old girl what it was good for. I told her.
She said in german: Das sieht voll doof aus!
I cannot fully translate the youth dialect, but it means:
That looks very studip. :D

ERCE
11-06-2009, 21:42
Fritz,

uncool, that's it ;-)

Regards from Hamburg

Roy Sandgren
11-06-2009, 21:53
Can even pic up 729kHz Putbus 140 km away from Malmö. 1 kW DRM. it's the groundwave that counts, OK?? Groundwave reception, that's DRM coverage.

DRM-OM
12-06-2009, 08:10
it's the groundwave that counts, OK?? Groundwave reception, that's DRM coverage.

But for that - we don't need a mode B or especially C and D - and we can scrap Shortwave altogether - as there is no nameable groundwave at all. :confused:
One of the goals of DRM development was - according to all those press releases - to get rid of all those selective fading that's typical for Shortwave/Skywave reception ...

Roy Sandgren
12-06-2009, 08:15
If you are driving outside your own country, drm on shortwave is good for listning to the news from your contry. If you are in the target area the signal can be great and you get the news.

DRM-OM
12-06-2009, 08:58
the signal can be great

but there is no guarantee for that, and if there are dropouts listening especially to news is so annoying that I stop listening at all and turn to good old crackling AM - where I get the contents right.
Best example is AIR at this time.

As I said repeatedly here: DRM reduces the target area, and according to my observations the limit is a single hop connection, that means: only big broadcasters with relay stations - or stations with rebroadcast contracts - get the message through ...

http://www.w4uvh.net/dxld9025.txt
DRM DEMOS AT THE WINTER SWL FEST

For the sixth year in a row, I demonstrated the somewhat-FM-like DRM
shortwave reception at the Winter SWL Fest, 13-14 March, at Kulpville,
Pennsylvania. My two e-mails to the DRM Consortium in London were,
this year, unanswered. However, through separate channels, we were
able to arrange special DRM transmissions with the kind assistance of
Vatican Radio and TDF France.

and then he (Kim Andrew Elliot) gave his results and conclusion:

In reality, DRM shortwave is more reliable over
modest distances, such as the new BBC and Deutsche Welle intra-
European DRM transmissions.

Some links:
http://kimelli.nfshost.com/index.php?id=6620

Roy Sandgren
12-06-2009, 10:09
Ok, if you can't pick up the AM signal, you got it on SW in DRM.

DRM-OM
12-06-2009, 11:41
note that when I speak of "AM" I refer to the kind of modulation and not to the part of the dial ...

DRM-OM
15-06-2009, 15:23
just an excerpt from the report about BBC MW test on 855kHz

the failure mode of DRM is – as with all digital systems – dramatic. The transition from working perfectly to not working at all is fairly sudden, even considering that DRM is designed to provide a measure of graceful degradation for longer than some other digital systems. Thus, listeners who previously received a degraded, interfered‐with AM service at night now received nothing.

and the conclusion:

... the problems experienced from a technical perspective can be overcome if there was a willingness to increase the power of the transmissions, add more medium‐wave transmitting stations to the network, and replan the use of frequencies.

so in short: set up a new system ...
... any questions?

Roy Sandgren
15-06-2009, 15:41
My DRM reciver in the car got a better quality than dab reception. DAB sounds like DRM on mediumwave.More treble on mediumwave.
Then we got something better in DRM, 26 MHz wich can offers optimal audio of 2x20 khz, wich is better than FM. A 500 watts drm get out 5 kw and at the same heigths as an FM antenna of 5 kW.
The supporters, lobbyists of dab+, dmb, don't want any car radios with drm and drm+, just dab+ dmb, nothing else.
DRM+ gives you CD-quality and in band l = 47-68 kHz fits to if you use all spectrum 21 MHz 120 radio channels cross country in CD-quality.
DRM+ in FM offers 4 CD-audio quality channels in 300kHz of an FM TX.

maxpower
16-06-2009, 16:59
just an excerpt from the report about BBC MW test on 855kHz
... any questions?

80 Watt ERP!



As I said repeatedly here: DRM reduces the target area, and according to my observations the limit is a single hop connection, that means: only big broadcasters with relay stations - or stations with rebroadcast contracts - get the message through ...


Rubbish!

HCJB, 15280 kHz, 5 - 7 Hops, Mode A, 4 kW, simple Rhombic antenna -
take care of Modes, Bitrates, Propagation and uncompressed input as Broadcaster and it works like charm; every evening proofs that.

Maybe its your RX thats limiting reception?!

Stephan


Stephan

DRM-OM
16-06-2009, 20:12
Stephan,

if you are capable of reading those documents (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/devon/pdfs/project-mayflower-summary-report.pdf) published by the BBC you should have noticed that

the main point of concern isn't the size of the coverage area, but
is the very significant difference between daytime and nighttime coverage area

And, be sure that the BBC engineers know what they are speaking about when they speak of co-channel-interference and do not mix up things like
Try a ususal carrier at some strenght 2 or 3 khz away which does take place often on MW.
If you experience this often you should perhaps check your RX

maxpower
16-06-2009, 20:46
Stephan,


the main point of concern isn't the size of the coverage area, but
is the very significant difference between daytime and nighttime coverage area




Hello? Is this really new for anybody here? Every MW (Evening-) User and especially MW-DXer know about these facts (and use them) for 10th of years.

Ask the ERF Listeners that know the 1467 Broadcasts at the evenings. They always complained about the "Extra Languages" they got at the same frequency.

This is why I always say that at evenings DRM Broadcasters should use lower bitrates at night (like Rai & R Vatican do successful). Change at evenings from 2x,xx kBit AAC+ to something like 12 - 16 kBit AAC+ and you have your coverage area back.

Broadcasting at frequencies used as Fill-QRGs or lokal QRGs at different places all over Europe with very low Power does not make much sense at higher bitrates at night. Skywave comes from every direction. But its a whole different story at 1296. You know that as I saw the link to the EMWG at your site.

Broadcasters have to learn to "smart use" the system. That may include also automatic feedback with reception and correction of bitrates and modes. This is one of the main advantages of the system that you can profile the system for local differences.



If you experience this often you should perhaps check your RX


Every day with greyline reception. Ask your nearby Perseus MW DXer. 1500, 1510, 1520, 1530 ... "Carrier spotting" seems to get a new part of MW-DXing. http://fmscan.org/perseus.php , http://www.myradiobase.de/mediumwave/mwoffset.txt :D


Stephan

DRM-OM
16-06-2009, 21:13
But its a whole different story at 1296. You know that as I saw the link to the EMWG at your site.

and this says:
1296 E - COPE Valencia, Castellar (Valencia) (50)
which is clearly audible here in the background when Orford Ness is broadcasting in AM - and causes the problems with DRM, as there is a slight frequency difference of a few Hz.

maxpower
16-06-2009, 21:26
I would like to see BBC/DW to broadcast at lower bitrates as well. But - at my place - I've no problems with co channel qrm at that frequency.

So what shall I say.

I'm in the target zone and it works good. And you are out of the target zone and have problems.

The only thing that you could do is asking the BBC to change/widen their target zone at MW, do higher power and lower bitrate. But as their strategie may differ they probably won't do that. :confused:
So it doesn't make any sense to discuss this any further.

Stephan

PS: Maybe an idea: Ask the BBC - if possible - to change frequency a few Hz. I've you're right your reception should do much better. If not...

zfyoung
17-06-2009, 02:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM-OM

the main point of concern isn't the size of the coverage area, but
is the very significant difference between daytime and nighttime coverage area

UnQote


Does anyone know where to find the recorded IF signal of the 'problematic' night time receptions mentioned in the BBC DRM trial?

I think difference between daytime and nighttime coverage is inevitable, but I don't think their difference is THAT significant esp. in target zone because I doubt their software is optimised enough for the most difficult senario.

maxpower
17-06-2009, 09:31
Hello People!

I don't think it's worth to discuss with him anymore. He only wants to complain.

He complains that Air India would be unm´listenable while others have no problems with listening to the programming. Look at this example:

Reception Air India, last days:


at this moment totally useless.
Will post log this night - wondering if it will improve



Almost perfect reception with >99 % CDA. Some glitches in the AF, otherwise fine.




Totally useless here, not able to follow the news or anything.
(btw.: break after 21:05 was caused by me looking for AM alternatives)



Perfect reception here.
Simone



99% CDA here on my portable setup, which I think is pretty good. Two significant breaks were caused by my laptop.



again useless.



useless, even worse than yesterday ...

...

He complains about 1296 kHz while others have no problems with that:

http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1143&page=98

And he thinks that this forum has no propose anymore because he "doesn't find any feedback"

http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56337#post56337

So either his "2 Year Holiday" was very bad or he has just gone an embittered old man who wants to complain in order to complain.
I don't know but for sure he doesn't want to get better reception, he wants to continue complaining.
I've better things to do, so I wont discuss with him anymore.

Stephan

Roy Sandgren
17-06-2009, 11:26
Longwave and lowfer end of mediumwave have the best groundwave day and nigth, hardly no fading during dark hours.
Of course, best drm is in the 26 MHz if the antenna is a anti skywave.

DRM-OM
17-06-2009, 20:21
but I don't think their difference is THAT significant esp. in target zone

Just look at the maps published in above linked doc. (page 10 and 11)
Nighttime is roughly 1/3 of daytime - diameter of reception zone wise.
AM is plotted on page 9 with comment in the text:
whilst the night‐time coverage of DRM is greater than the equivalent ‘clean’
AM coverage, it is apparent that the technical limit of AM coverage is not the same
as the limit at which listeners will stop listening to it. Thus, listeners will tolerate
much more cross‐talk from interfering sources than is catered for in international
planning standards,

Just read the document, I will not post my personal oppinion here.

DRM-OM
17-06-2009, 20:39
Generally I don't think that it is wise to fight a war of words in a forum but certain people seem to like personal attacks.
Forum users might be interested in the behaviour of this person in this discussion (http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56297#post56297) - no proven technical arguments, but lots of attacks.:eek: :mad:

zfyoung
18-06-2009, 02:47
Just look at the maps published in above linked doc. (page 10 and 11)
Nighttime is roughly 1/3 of daytime - diameter of reception zone wise.
AM is plotted on page 9 with comment in the text:


Just read the document, I will not post my personal oppinion here.


Hi, Bernhard. I'd read that document before I posted the last comment. And what I really mean is 'what if their DRM software decoder is less than perfect, esp. in dealing with co-channel interference?' But of course, that is pure speculation only. For a final conclusion, I had to lay my hands on the actual recorded IF signal and see if I can extract some audio out of the supposedly 'bad' signal.


BTW,I found your experiment with 'co-channel interference to DRM signal' in the other thread is quite interesting. Would you just be kind enough to send me the recorded IF signal esp. the one with 'carrier at +10Hz from center'? because in the same thread, another forum member 'oh2bfo' verify your result and come up with a simple solution -notch filter. I'd like to give it a investigation. Thanks.:)

DRM-OM
18-06-2009, 06:50
Would you just be kind enough to send me the recorded IF signal esp. the one with 'carrier at +10Hz from center'?

Of course I can do that, but please be patient for a few days since I did the tests some time ago and have to redo them to record the IF files.
I have a few questions to that and would like to discuss this in the original thread (http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56364#post56364) to keep things together.

radiomann
27-06-2009, 18:42
Well i got a bit tired of waiting for DRM esspecially for Luxy, so i decided to start my own station with some ex 208 dj's coming soon, now is it worth going onto DRM????

Paul

www.replayradio.net

Roy Sandgren
27-06-2009, 20:54
Yap, get your own shortwave or mediumwave transmitter in drm.
Best of all is an analouge on mediumwave and a drm on shortwave.

mitajohn
17-09-2009, 12:36
Hi all,

This may be is interesting: http://radiomagonline.com/digital_radio_update/drm-standards-approval-receiver-profiles-0916/

Roy Sandgren
17-09-2009, 13:16
However, the number of recievers are increasing in the market. more and more buys a DRM reciever and the hours of daily broadcasting is increasing.
The future, DRM in 150 kHz - 27 MHz and DRM+ in band l, ll, lll and the L-band.
Thats what we need, nothing else.

pb1
17-09-2009, 19:19
At the IBC I have seen a demonstration of DRTV, TV via DRM. But at 8 frames a second, is it viable. I will upload some material later.

mitajohn
22-09-2009, 07:47
Hi all,

I think this is encouraging: http://www.rwonline.com/article/87432

mitajohn
05-11-2009, 22:15
Hi all,

For your info: EBU has announced a EBU-DRM conference at Geneva on 26 Nov. 2009. More info at the EBU's tech site.

mitajohn
17-11-2009, 12:23
Hi all,

That's the latest news for DRM in India, here: http://www.radioworld.com/article/90410

mitajohn
19-11-2009, 07:52
Hi all,

Some info from the Russian Radio Symposium found here: http://radiomagonline.com/digital_radio/drm-itu-boost-russian-symposium-11187/

KD7YUF
21-11-2009, 23:33
From what I am seeing the answer is no, DRM does not have a future. Not unless stand alone receivers come to the market at an affordable price worldwide do I see this technology taking off. Attempting to receive the broadcasts that are out there has become a frustrating experience for me personally as I can't find anything state side which would allow me to listen to them. This is quite a technology with huge potential but under the current circumstances its being suppressed and fairly obscure with reception limited to those who are able to mod their receivers or those who own SDRs. This is the only hurdle I see that DRM must get over in order to really take off but its all down to persuading the receiver manufacturers who have a world wide presence such as Icom, Yaesu, and Sangean to build and sell DRM receivers on the world market at an affordable price. As soon as this happens more broadcasters will adopt it and the number of hours of DRM programing each week will increase. Over all, it just depends on receivers coming to the world market in order for DRM to become better known and more widely used. Its a great technology, lets not let it die off.

Roy Sandgren
22-11-2009, 08:32
KD7YUF, Dear friend, in a combination of AM,FM,DAB+ and DRM in one compact reciever it has a future. To replace all am transmitters around the world to drm, it will take 20-30 years.DRM+ will replace the FM-band, within the next 10-20 years.USA did HD-radio instead.

KD7YUF
22-11-2009, 16:39
Right, but HD Radio is just for AM and FM here and the FCC did approve DRM for use in the shortwave broadcast bands and its being used right now by the Voice Of America from the Greenville North Carolina site and also WYFR in Okeechobee Florida is in the process of converting one of their transmitters to use it. Its supposed to have a worldwide appeal and that is what I was referring to not just the European market where a combination of DRM along with analog AM and FM and digital DAB, DAB+, and DRM+ would make quite a bit of sense. This is also based on my personal frustrations as I want a DRM receiver but can't find one and also can't find downmixers which go from either 9 MHz to 12 KHz or 455 KHz to 12 KHz available in the US which are affordable to listeners and I say 9 MHz as that is an option with Icom receivers.

Roy Sandgren
22-11-2009, 17:31
KD7YUF, I got a drm reciever in my car and the engine went totaly broken this afternoon, just 500m from my friends place. He repairs friends cars and vans.he got a trucking company.Ok, new engine or a newer car, thats the question??. When i recieve drm in my car, like RTL on 49-m, it's just like an FM-station, but I'm a little outside the target area, so droputs can happend.
When some broadcasters have the target area, were I do live, it's very great to pic up in a car.
Final conclusion, drm is not dead, if goverments issue drm licences and manufactors make recievers with drm as standard.
Slowly but surely...

KD7YUF
23-11-2009, 19:25
The way I see it, its the other way around and was that way with HD Radio. It did not really take off until sub $300 receivers started to show up on the market resulting in more and more stations adopting the technology. DRM is just frustrating for me especially since I posted a request for help with a down mixer which was designed by a forum member that I can't seem to get to work at all despite everything being wired up correctly and the SA602 IC that its based around getting 4.5 volts DC as it was intended to. And also using the correct components in all but one situation as I was unable to find a .002 pF capacitor and replaced it with a trimmer capacitor taken out of an old and dead CB radio.

Roy Sandgren
23-11-2009, 19:53
Hi again, if the FM/AM/DAB+ recievers get DRM as standard, it will be a help to the market of DRM. Hope soon the UNIWAVE,HIMALAYA,TECHNISAT get the DAB+ as standard and other models in combination of DAB+ and DRM.
Here in Sweden we are still awaiting the proposal of digital radio in band lll, tv channel 12 and DRM. Then we have to watch if any broadcasters want to go DRM?? perhaps in the 26 MHz to local service. 2 x 20 kHz, better than even DAB+. Let us use the radiowaves in the name of freedom!!

KD7YUF
23-11-2009, 20:34
I have heard about those 26 MHz transmissions in Europe and even ran across one while I was still able to access a DRM receiver in southern Sweden. It was the Radio Luxembourg one from Junglnster on something like 26.045 MHz and it decoded quite reliably through E-skip. I want a DRM receiver very badly but can't find one in the US so my only option is to mod an existing receiver to down mix its IF to 12 KHz for sound card decoding which so far has been a failed effort or to import one from Europe and mod it to work with 115 volts AC so that I can use it here in the US to receive the DRM shortwave broadcasts which are so far elusive to me.

Roy Sandgren
23-11-2009, 20:54
Hi KD, must be someone in the states able to help you out of this problem.
I didn't know that RTL was on 26 MHz, but I can get them on 6095 kHz, even outside the target area, wich is Sweden.50 kw DRM + antenna beam.
For the USA I suppose you need some longwires or active vertical antennas to get DRM service. You will always find some solutions around you with a little help from radioamateurs, they know better..

KD7YUF
23-11-2009, 21:03
That was the easiest one to get on that receiver too, now that I think about it the thing could very well have been in Malmo and the receiver was of course an SDR one made by Ilad in Italy. The transmission I think is on 25.995 MHz (check the DRM broadcast schedule to be sure) and very low power but with a good E-skip opening to Luxembourg it should be receivable on a good antenna even an omni would work fine. As for my situation, there is one other idea but unfortunately its in a back issue of QST magazine and I am no longer an ARRL member. In the October 2003 issue there was a project consisting of a DRM down mixer which goes from 9 MHz to 12 KHz based around the Philips SA602 mixer/up/down converter IC which I happen to have available to me right now and used a parallel L/C circuit for tuning rather than a crystal. I have been trying to find the complete schematic and article for it but can't access it anywhere online because of having lapsed membership.

KD7YUF
23-11-2009, 21:56
I found the schematic but just need to convert the values from nanofarads to microfarads since it would be easier to buy parts in the later of the two.

Roy Sandgren
24-11-2009, 07:46
OK KY, you did visit Malmo. Yap, some drm in Luxemburg was on air, even some in London on 26 MHz. Now we need some experts to you helping you out. I'm awating the proposal of digital radio in Sweden wich includes DAB+ and DRM.
See you,
Roy, Malmö Sweden

KD7YUF
24-11-2009, 15:47
No I did not actually, it was a receiver on the former DX Tuners service which was in the area and was as I said an Ilad SDR receiver with a DRM demodulator in its software. This is actually what did it for me as well, I was so impressed with the sound quality even over the stream that I absolutely HAD to have a receiver which could do DRM. Here in the US even 25 and 26 MHz DRM service might be possible given that the 11 meter shortwave band is all but deserted but it all depends on what I mentioned before. Up there its mostly auxiliary transmitters for AM stations which actually use narrow band FM oddly enough whose purpose is for remote broadcasts. Those make some fun targets for DXers during the summer E-skip season and also during solar maximums as they have been reported as far away as Europe and Asia despite their relatively low power. The situation for that here in the US is that the FCC approved DRM for use on the shortwave broadcast bands and Ibiquity's HD Radio on the AM (MW) and FM broadcast bands instead of DAB because we are quite literally out of spectrum.

CT4RK
25-11-2009, 11:53
Hi KD7YUF.

All you need is this receiver.

http://www.elektor.com.pt/products/kits-modules/modules-(-9x)/software-defined-radio-(070039-91).91475.lynkx

Of course you need know some basics of radio hombrew, and know read the electronics components values, for assemble a radio like this.

mvs sarma
25-11-2009, 12:54
Hi KD7YUF.

All you need is this receiver.

http://www.elektor.com.pt/products/kits-modules/modules-(-9x)/software-defined-radio-(070039-91).91475.lynkx

Of course you need know some basics of radio hombrew, and know read the electronics components values, for assemble a radio like this.

Except soldering SMDs , there should be no problems, provided he has a spare board.
I got them locally made Double sided PTH.
But the issue here , is that it can cater for AM(HF band ) only not DRM/DAB in FM mode, I fear. Of course, a fully assembled board is being sold by Elektor and KD7YUF could very well order for it.

KD7YUF
25-11-2009, 14:51
I can't afford it right now, its well out of my price range but in a last ditch effort I will be trying the board I built on my Sangean ATS-909 because I suspect that at my IF tap point the 455 KHz IF is too weak to drive the board. And it goes against my goal to receive DRM using parts that can be obtained in the United States, Canada, or Mexico as I don't like the shipping charges to and from Europe (I am in the western United States). But otherwise a very reasonable suggestion as I have experience reading component values such as resistor color codes and to an extent capacitor codes and also some SMD experience even though I don't like working with it. Also, I like that it has USB for tuning rather than RS-232 which will make things easier as my laptop does not have serial ports at all. It will be in the back of my mind and I think I will get it if I can't get my existing home built board to work and can save up the money to buy it and ship it reasonably fast. DAB was mentioned but it really does not matter to me as Eureka 147 is not what we use in the US and I already have an AM/FM receiver which receives the almost US unique HD Radio or IBOC-DAB system I am just interested in receiving the DRM broadcasts on shortwave so the Elektor will work out fine as soon as I can save up the money.

mvs sarma
26-11-2009, 05:29
I can't afford it right now, its well out of my price range but in a last ditch effort I will be trying the board I built on my Sangean ATS-909 because I suspect that at my IF tap point the 455 KHz IF is too weak to drive the board. And it goes against my goal to receive DRM using parts that can be obtained in the United States, Canada, or Mexico as I don't like the shipping charges to and from Europe (I am in the western United States). But otherwise a very reasonable suggestion as I have experience reading component values such as resistor color codes and to an extent capacitor codes and also some SMD experience even though I don't like working with it. Also, I like that it has USB for tuning rather than RS-232 which will make things easier as my laptop does not have serial ports at all. It will be in the back of my mind and I think I will get it if I can't get my existing home built board to work and can save up the money to buy it and ship it reasonably fast. DAB was mentioned but it really does not matter to me as Eureka 147 is not what we use in the US and I already have an AM/FM receiver which receives the almost US unique HD Radio or IBOC-DAB system I am just interested in receiving the DRM broadcasts on shortwave so the Elektor will work out fine as soon as I can save up the money.
you can always have a stage of amplification after the NE602/NE612 in the 455 to 12KHz converter.the output is expected to be connected to MIKE socket instead of LINE IN.
thus you may also have a 2K terminating resistor , such that the bias power supply finds a way of draining little current simulating the Mike load.

After this you may have to enable MIKE IN as the input for Dream software.
you are also able to adjust the gain of the Mike at the Sound card properties, perhaps.
With these adjustments, An ATS 909 should help you receive DRM signal.
All the best.

mitajohn
26-11-2009, 05:57
Hi all,

After this you may have to enable MIKE IN as the input for Dream software. you are also able to adjust the gain of the Mike at the Sound card properties, perhaps.

...and you must disable any Mic boost and noise reduction functions of the sound-card, if any.

mvs sarma
26-11-2009, 16:43
Hi all,



...and you must disable any Mic boost and noise reduction functions of the sound-card, if any.

A timely instruction Mitajohn! Thanks.

Siber
28-11-2009, 03:17
...and you must disable any Mic boost and noise reduction functions of the sound-card, if any.
But any device that has external input also has foolproof protection.:)
I use the Mic In Input without problem.

mvs sarma
28-11-2009, 15:04
But any device that has external input also has foolproof protection.:)
I use the Mic In Input without problem.
perhaps the 20 db boost is not enabled in your machine.

pdeitch
28-11-2009, 21:05
KD7YUF, I got a drm reciever in my car ....


Where did you get it Roy, I would really like one myself?

Roy Sandgren
28-11-2009, 21:22
Hi pdeitch,
I'm agency of this carbox in scandinavia and the box has dab and drm. What I understand, you live in Germany and the main office is in Germany of this product. With the active antenna it's sometimes great reception of RTL and BBC on medium and shortwave. Outside Malmö I can pic up 729 khz, 1 kW DRM abou 120 km away during daytime.
A positive news is that my friend at PTT, she told me that DRM is slowly going forwards in number of stations, hours and sales of recievers.

Digger
28-11-2009, 22:36
Where did you get it?
Hi,
On Thiecom's (Germany) home page it is "in ganz kleinen Stückzahlen verfügbar"

Roy Sandgren
29-11-2009, 09:36
First skip and in the target area of DRM shortwave can be a few dropouts only.

DRM-OM
29-11-2009, 18:08
but its all down to persuading the receiver manufacturers who have a world wide presence such as Icom, Yaesu, and Sangean to build and sell DRM receivers on the world market at an affordable price. As soon as this happens more broadcasters will adopt it

Do you have any idea how industry works?
Noone will invest in a new technology right now if there is not a return on invest of at least double digit numbers right from the beginning.
At this moment "core competences" are being defined (and in many cases these are not "old technologies"), companies are being split, departments outsourced, resources (development as well as manufacturing) being shifted to "low cost countries", employees kicked out etc.
This is not the environment to start new products.

That's why DRM products are only available in limited numbers by small or new - in any case not well-known in the public - companies.

KD7YUF
30-11-2009, 18:12
That really does explain quite a bit of the obstacles the technology is facing right now. Which are the fact that receivers are isolated almost entirely to Europe, why the general public does not know about it, why the number of hours of worldwide broadcasts are really low, why broadcasters outside of Europe are a bit reluctant to adopt it unless they have to by government legislation among others.

I do understand that the DRM consortium is promoting the technology which will help things greatly and get the word out that it exists and what it can do but the challenge will be to get this out to the general public and not just shortwave listeners given the technology is designed for use on the AM (MW) and LW broadcast bands as well as shortwave.

In the United States it is restricted to shortwave given that an IBOC-DAB system exists and has taken off quite well in recent years but I can see it being used by license free (part 15) micro-broadcasters as no royalties are charged for using it unlike with Ibiquity's IBOC system also known as HD Radio.

This system is being used in place of DRM on the AM broadcast band and will shut out DRM+ from the FM broadcast band given that the FM version does work quite well even over long distances assuming the listener has an antenna designed for the distances they are dealing with. A normal half wave dipole antenna will work in many cases or indoor rabbit ears both the amplified and passive variety.

Siber
17-12-2009, 05:06
I am receive of DRM signals on short waves the second year. And here is the conclusion that I have come.
Reception of DRM signals with high quality on the big distances is almost impossible.
The main reason is loss of a parts of a signal at deterioration of propagation.
I think it is possible to eliminate such defects of reception by transmitting the combined signal consisting of DRM and АМ parts.
At decoding of the signal as much as possible to use information of АМ component and insert it in intervals where the DRM component was not decoded. Besides, it will be possible to accept a signal in SSB mode .
Confirming to the conclusions I result record of Deutsche Welle signal .
It is a bad signal from position of ordinary user.
http://files.mail.ru/9KNACQ
There is the log of the signal

Roy Sandgren
17-12-2009, 06:24
Hi Siber, best reception of drm in the sw bands is in the first target area.Most reception is on sky waves, not the ground wave, like medium or longwave daylight hours = groundwave

Siber
17-12-2009, 07:34
Hi Roy!
You truly speak.
But reception of signals is not in perfect conditions. For example, in a car.
And my practice has shown, that even at good propagation the losses of a part of the signal owing to fadding and conflicts of several beams of the signal are possible. It is absolutely not compatible to concept of quality and naturally does not characterise the technology from the best party.
АМ signals are accepted in a similar case with small loss of quality.
And I think that small loss of the signal quality is better than its total absence

Roy Sandgren
17-12-2009, 07:49
Hi Siber, i got a car radio reciver with dab and drm. RTL om 6095 can be great, but sometime lot of dropouts. I do live outside the target area wich is germany. In the target area the signal is much more stronger.
We intend to do tests from a TX in DRM wich will be a target area of scandinavia and 65 kW DRM and in the target area +55db/mw and much more.

zfyoung
17-12-2009, 09:00
The interleaver length of DRM is 2 sec. at most, so if the signal is consistently weak/ bad in 2 sec. drop-out is inevitable.

Best way to combat this defect is multi-frequency / synchronized
single-frequency network. But at the early stage of DRM roll-out, many
cash-strapped shortwave broadcaster are struggling to cover their
target area, I don't think they would bother to take measures to increase their signal reliability outside target of interest!

Siber
17-12-2009, 13:41
Friends, I tell about receiving in 1 -2 jumps , or 2000 and more kilometers.
The receiving distance of example that I showed is about 4000 km,

PP5AZF-Ataliba
19-12-2009, 03:35
I agree it is better to receive a low quality audio than not receive it. So the hdxRadio is well regarded here in Brazil, mainly in the VHF-FM band, to be simulcast IBOC. I do not like the IBOC system because it takes up more bandwidth than when the DRM is transmitting analog and digital at the same time lateral donors in the upper and lower central frequency.
The delay between the digital and analog is easy to solve. Just put a device
the receiver that can be triggered manually by the listener. This is easy to solve because the analog audio is always present, being received every time we're decoding the digital audio, only the eliminated because we do not want. When stop digital audio dropout, just play the audio line that is already present, but that is at the same time, ie, synchronized. The quality will decrease, but will never be muted.
I still remember that, in AM, we have filters DSB receivers and leave the PM with great audio fidelity.

Original text in portuguese

Concordo que é melhor receber um áudio de baixa qualidade do que não o recebê-lo. Por isso o HDRadio está bem cotado aqui no Brasil, principalmente na faixa FM-VHF, por ser simulcast IBOC. Eu não gosto do sistema IBOC porque ocupa mais largura de banda que o DRM quando está transmitindo analógico e digital ao mesmo tempo nas lateriais superior e inferior da frequencia central.
O atraso entre o digital e o analógico é fácil de resolver. Basta colocar um dispositivo
no receptor que possa ser acionado manualmente pelo ouvinte. Isso é fácil de resolver porque o áudio analógico está sempre presente, sendo recebido todo tempo que estamos decodificando o áudio digital, apenas o eliminamos porque não o queremos. Quando interromper o áudio digital por falha de sinal, basta reproduzir o áudio analógico que já está presente, mas que está no mesmo tempo, ou seja, sincronizado. A qualidade diminuirá, mas nunca ficará sem áudio.
Lembro ainda que, em AM, poderemos colocar filtros DSB nos receptores e que deixarão o áudio AM com muita fidelidade.

Roy Sandgren
19-12-2009, 09:30
Hi folks around the world,
some positive news from Sweden. The new proposal of analouge and digital radio will issue new am,fm,dab+,drm and drm+ licences after 1 of July 2010.
Digital licences, criteria only. Analouge licences, criteria and bids.
Below 30 MHz, all broadcasting bands, am or drm. DAB+ in band lll + L-band.
DRM+ in band l and ll.

mitajohn
09-02-2010, 12:11
For your info: http://radioworld.com/article/94184

Roy Sandgren
09-02-2010, 13:22
What did I told you all??? It's comming up step by step and the new eurolaw says that you are free to broadcast in all broadcasting bands below 30 MHz, in AM/DRM.Sweden will open it up 1 of July to applications.
Russia and India got DRM as new standards, but it will take some years to get rid of all old high power consution TX's AM mode. In vehicles drm is great.

mitajohn
28-02-2010, 07:44
Hi all,

I found this for your info: http://radioworld.com/article/94184

mitajohn
06-04-2010, 09:26
Hi all,

This is for info: http://www.rwonline.com/article/97668

mitajohn
06-08-2010, 08:42
Hi all,

This is for your info: http://www.prosoundnewseurope.com/website-content/full/fraunhofer-announces-low-bitrate-drm-video

DRM-OM
01-10-2010, 13:22
Another Report:
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/september2010/bayerischer_rundfunk.htm

also http://kimelli.nfshost.com/index.php?id=9724
with some remarks and also other drm-topics

RichD790
11-10-2010, 14:02
I for one hope that DRM has a future, but it does seem that progress is slow in comparison to internet radio, which seems to develop by the day. It would be interesting to know how many radio sets have been sold to date, but as so many have stated previously, there is a need for a cheap mass produced receiver (that can receive all other bands) and hopefully this would bring more radio stations to start transmitting.

Roy Sandgren
11-10-2010, 14:55
More stations we get in the broadcasting band, less will listen to internet radio. Internet radio is a 2 way communication and if the net is overcrowded of stations it can be lot of bufferings and break downs.
Then one day the cell operator will have some money for down loading the audio and now it's a problem.
Have to tell you that a community radio on 94,5 MHz had a great oldie program, but the border of the station decided to let a big network from Stockholm Rockklassiker take the airtime, better payed and now the oldistation is on webb only, no adds, no dj's, music only. They lost all ads from the FM listnings.They had 6 -12 min ads per hour.

RichD790
11-10-2010, 16:26
Hi Roy,

I must say that the FM radio in Borås is pretty poor, even worse now after Mix Megapol has lost its local transmissions, and they now have more adverts than ever before. The BBC world service on DRM however is superb compared to what it was like on short wave, especially the premier league at the weekends, so I am a believer in DRM (the Proms was great too). I wish they had a station playing 60's, 70's 80's. Incidently, they have just opened a Media Markt in Borås and it's possible to buy a radio with DAB+, not much bleeding use in Borås that is!
I hope the BBC/DW keep the faith, but I'm not sure how long they will go it alone.

Roy Sandgren
12-10-2010, 10:09
HI, you are the guy bougth a drm from Germany.Mr. Dawson. Well the dab+ wll be comming up in Sweden within 3 -6 months with 4 MUX and 16 channels in each mux. We are still awating for am licences with drm in all bands in Sweden. DRM from RTL gone on sw, course that was the one and only station in Sweden to listen to. DRM on sw is great in the car.

drmdab
12-10-2010, 12:32
I hope the BBC/DW keep the faith, but I'm not sure how long they will go it alone.

By the way, "BBC & DW" will cease it's transmission at the end of this month. Deutsche Welle will decrease it's DRM activities.

RichD790
12-10-2010, 12:47
By the way, "BBC & DW" will cease it's transmission at the end of this month. Deutsche Welle will decrease it's DRM activities.

If this is the case then this is a huge blow for DRM.

RichD790
12-10-2010, 13:15
If this is the case then this is huge blow for DRM.

Where did the information come from drmdab? (I'm sorry I can't speak any German otherwise I would have got the answer from your website)

drmdab
12-10-2010, 16:18
@RichD790: http://www.drmrx.org/forum/private.php ;)

RichD790
12-10-2010, 16:23
@RichD790: http://www.drmrx.org/forum/private.php ;)
Thank you

Richard

RichD790
19-10-2010, 11:01
Thank you for your email. It is true that BBC World Service/Deutsche Welle DRM transmissions in Europe are to cease, as this joint service will move to South Asia. However, BBC World Service will start a new European DRM service operating for four hours daily between 0500 and 0900 GMT daily. BBC WS is, as you are aware, available 24 hours a day online, and most programmes can be downloaded as podcasts. We are also carried on the Hot Bird 8 satellite at 13° East (transponder 50, vertical polarisation, 11727 MHz, Service ID 13907). Best regardsAudience InformationBBC World Service

Digger
19-10-2010, 12:04
Then I have to think twice before dragging all my DRM stuff to Japan in December... :confused:

RichD790
19-10-2010, 17:12
Then I have to think twice before dragging all my DRM stuff to Japan in December... :confused:
Don't you get WS on FM in Stockholm by the way?

Roy Sandgren
19-10-2010, 17:30
I do get BBC/DW sw service in drm in south of Sweden around middays in my car.

Digger
19-10-2010, 17:49
@ RichD790: As far as I understand, no.

RichD790
19-10-2010, 18:00
@ RichD790: As far as I understand, no.
My apologies Digger, it says Cable FM on the WS web page.
(We can hope that DRM really takes off in south Asia and then makes a real comeback in Europe).

RichD790
22-10-2010, 10:27
Thank you for your email. It is true that BBC World Service/Deutsche Welle DRM transmissions in Europe are to cease, as this joint service will move to South Asia. However, BBC World Service will start a new European DRM service operating for four hours daily between 0500 and 0900 GMT daily. BBC WS is, as you are aware, available 24 hours a day online, and most programmes can be downloaded as podcasts. We are also carried on the Hot Bird 8 satellite at 13° East (transponder 50, vertical polarisation, 11727 MHz, Service ID 13907). Best regardsAudience InformationBBC World Service


I'm a bit surprised that the DRM Consortium hasn't made a statement about this, or am I expecting too much?

miketerry
24-10-2010, 11:43
I wonder if the changes to BBC funding will affect its DRM service.

RichD790
25-10-2010, 14:22
I wonder if the changes to BBC funding will affect its DRM service.
I think it already has Mike, with just four hours a day, or maybe there's more cutbacks to come.
Any chance of reinstating BBC WS SW to western Europe I wonder.

CT4RK
25-10-2010, 22:13
Hi all my friends

Unfortunately is true. DW will stop their DRM transmissions in the next schedule.
From Sines we are left with only 2 DRM transmission. One hour for BBC, and 90 minuts to RTPi during weekend.
I hope that we will return to digital mode in a near future, I hope...

73 and all the best for all

CT4RK
Sines

FritzWue
25-10-2010, 22:24
DRM was just a fata morgana. :mad:
Just bought a DRAKE TR7. :)
Will go back to analog amateurradio. :cool:

DRM-OM
26-10-2010, 04:07
Just bought a DRAKE TR7. :)
Fine piece of equipment :) Used this in the late 1980s

I'm a bit surprised that the DRM Consortium hasn't made a statement about this, or am I expecting too much?
This is not the kind of news fitting into the PR-concept of the consortium ...

RichD790
26-10-2010, 06:01
Fine piece of equipment :) Used this in the late 1980s


This is not the kind of news fitting into the PR-concept of the consortium ...

Completely right DRM-OM, I thought there might be something along the lines of that they are now going to concentrate on South Asia and that DRM transmissions will be stepped up again when it has taken off there (cheap sets and lots of transmissions).

Roy Sandgren
26-10-2010, 07:29
Finland,Norway, Denmark and now Sweden has cheased their SW service.This means even DRM service. Today you can buy a small SW pocket reciever for 10€ with am and FM. China has massproduction of small pocket recievers with all SW bands.

RichD790
26-10-2010, 07:45
Finland,Norway, Denmark and now Sweden has cheased their SW service.This means even DRM service. Today you can buy a small SW pocket reciever for 10€ with am and FM. China has massproduction of small pocket recievers with all SW bands.


So what do you think the future of long distance radio in Europe is Roy?

Hälsningar

Richard

Roy Sandgren
26-10-2010, 08:17
Don't know, but times can changes it to a com back of sw broadcasting.

MikeB
26-10-2010, 10:08
Completely right DRM-OM, I thought there might be something along the lines of that they are now going to concentrate on South Asia and that DRM transmissions will be stepped up again when it has taken off there (cheap sets and lots of transmissions).

There's now a press release about the new South Asia service:
http://www.drm.org/index.php?p=news_item&uid=218

DRM-OM
26-10-2010, 11:52
There's now a press release about the new South Asia service:
http://www.drm.org/index.php?p=news_item&uid=218
... and, off course, no word of shutting down in Europe ...

RichD790
26-10-2010, 14:44
Seems like it's already changed, just put my radio on 15640 and it's all in Indian (I think)

AF4MP
26-10-2010, 14:53
They are probably thinking that as the real growth of DRM receivers will begin in that south Asian region there is no point in wasting money on transmissions to Europe where there are no listeners.

In fact the average person in Europe, and the rest of the world for that matter, does not know that DRM exists.

RichD790
26-10-2010, 15:59
They are probably thinking that as the real growth of DRM receivers will begin in that south Asian region there is no point in wasting money on transmissions to Europe where there are no listeners.

In fact the average person in Europe, and the rest of the world for that matter, does not know that DRM exists.

So what should they have done?

AF4MP
26-10-2010, 16:13
So what should they have done?

If you are asking what choice did the BBC/DW have, the answer is they probably did not have a choice. Particularly with the current economic crisis, funding for any DRM transmissions would be very difficult to justify.

RichD790
26-10-2010, 16:21
If you are asking what choice did the BBC/DW have, the answer is they probably did not have a choice. Particularly with the current economic crisis, funding for any DRM transmissions would be very difficult to justify.

Hi AF4MP,

Sounds about right to me. What I wondered was what should they have done to make it a success in Europe. I only found out about DRM because of the shortwave transmissions they replaced, but I still had to order a receiver from Germany (but I did wait until the price was dumped to around 100 Euros before I did). Perhaps the Uniwave receiver should have been cheaper!

AF4MP
26-10-2010, 17:06
What I wondered was what should they have done to make it a success in Europe

As I understand it, until now, DRM has been rolled out primarily as a trial to see how well it would work. So as a concept it has been a success.

If you define success as in being a widely available and a required commodity, then that is yet to come. The receiver manufacturers are waiting for the time when there is a demand for the DRM radios. Basically to achieve that there needs to be a mandate that all AM broadcasting will change to DRM at a certain date.

RichD790
26-10-2010, 18:08
As I understand it, until now, DRM has been rolled out primarily as a trial to see how well it would work. So as a concept it has been a success.

If you define success as in being a widely available and a required commodity, then that is yet to come. The receiver manufacturers are waiting for the time when there is a demand for the DRM radios. Basically to achieve that there needs to be a mandate that all AM broadcasting will change to DRM at a certain date.

I agree. I do think DRM's time will come again, maybe in another 3-5 years when the all conquering/all consuming internet has become saturated. I don't think they started too early with DRM either, it would have been a mistake to wait.

I bought the cheapest bit of crap internet radio I could find here for 80 Euros and have it in the garage through a WiFi connection from the router, and I have to say it works really well, with how many thousand stations (including BBC WS) How can DRM compete with this, (even though we have to pay every month), and of course there's the mobile phone network...............

Juan_CAT
27-10-2010, 01:11
In Spain, all private MW stations must broadcast in digital (DRM) before August 13, 2014.

I don't know if the government will change the law (as they did for DAB, they widened time-limit to achieve 80% of population coverage from June 30, 2006 to December 31, 2011, they made it on June 26, 2006), radio stations will override the law:eek: (I doubt it) or they will broadcast in simulcast analog-digital (as the COMRàdio seems to have made in 2007), I would be surprised if they go to 100% digital.

AF4MP
27-10-2010, 12:21
In Spain, all private MW stations must broadcast in digital (DRM) before August 13, 2014.

It will be interesting to see what happens!

CT4RK
27-10-2010, 22:37
Hi
I never understandig why the European broadcasters and DRM consortium never see Brasil as a potencial contry for DRM. Today, Brasil is one of the most active country to try implement DRM. Remember that IBOC was in field before DRM consortium see Brasil.
Thanks to Ataliba and other highly skilled people in the area of
radio, Brazil will probably choose the DRM as standard. And I believe that Brazil manufacture also de receivers. Brazil have a high potencial for the developement of DRM. Have the people, the ways and the money!!!

73 CT4RK

AF4MP
27-10-2010, 23:53
Yes, I agree with you! The efforts in Brazil may very well be the way that DRM gets that boost into orbit.

RichD790
08-11-2010, 16:36
@ RichD790: As far as I understand, no.


Sweden: Stockholm, Swedish Radio International 89.6 FM according to the web page.
Jeepers, my DRM radio is quiet in the evening now..................

mitajohn
10-11-2010, 11:24
Hi all,

Is this encouraging ? http://www.rwonline.com/article/109048

Roy Sandgren
10-11-2010, 12:01
Hi folks, its all about dab+, not so much DRM. Best way is to do AM mode on MW and DRM on SW. Best solutions.

DRM-OM
28-01-2011, 15:50
It seems that DRM - as well as traditional radio - does not play any role at BBC WS strategy planning any more:

Reductions in short wave and medium wave radio distribution
There will be a phased reduction in medium wave and short wave throughout the period.

English language short wave and medium wave broadcasts to Russia and the Former Soviet Union are planned to end in March 2011. The 648 medium wave service covering Western Europe and south-east England will end in March 2011. (...) By March 2014, short wave broadcasts of the English service could be reduced to two hours per day in Africa and Asia.

BBC World Service will cease all short wave distribution of its radio content in March 2011 in: Hindi, Indonesian, Kyrgyz, Nepali, Swahili and the Great Lakes service (for Rwanda and Burundi).
(...)
Short wave broadcasts in remaining languages other than English are expected to end by March 2014 with the exception of a small number of "lifeline" services such as Burmese and Somali.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2011/01_january/26/worldservice.shtml

RichD790
28-01-2011, 16:15
It seems that DRM - as well as traditional radio - does not play any role at BBC WS strategy planning any more:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2011/01_january/26/worldservice.shtml
Thanks DRM-OM, that was pretty depressing reading from your link. I can't see the DRM BBCWS four hours a day to Europe continuing with all the other cutbacks.

RichD790
28-01-2011, 17:35
This is a quote from just a few years ago, just nine months before the WS stopped shortwave transmissions to western Europe in feb. 2008.

"In May 2007 the BBC reported that the World Service's average weekly audience had reached 183 million people, beating the previous record of 163 million listeners set the previous year"

What happened?